Haindl Court Parade

ThreeNine

I was unable to find a Haindl thread in the study groups. I've been working with this deck daily for over a year and for the past two months, the Courts appear more often than not. I have found Rachel Pollack's companion volume a helpful read but also feel there's more to this particular story.

Does anyone know another online or material resource regarding the Haindl Court? Or maybe you've had a Court parade yourself?

- I don't feel like they're "introducing" themselves
- I don't feel they're linking strongly to people in my real life
- I don't feel they're linking strongly to inner aspects of my own self

But I do feel they have a message. Hoping someone can help me see the forest for the trees.

Thanks!

Nemia

Did you see the old thread?

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=123319

It seems you're not the only one who struggles. I love the Haindl and it's one of the first decks I bought, but the court cards are difficult for me, too. I'm glad they appear rarely when I read with them... because I find the attributions confusing and even counter intuitive.

The mythological figures turn the court cards for me into something more resembling an archetype - i.e., a different set of trumps. They lose their "oh that's my knight/disks stubbornness"-potential. And that's a pity.

The Haindlcious blog makes it sound like an advantage but that doesn't really convince me. For study that may be great and give new insights about the character of each suit, but for readings, I find it an obstacle.

https://haindlicious.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/the-daughters/

The only place where I can "dock on" with more human interpretations was the Daugther/Cups because it's said that's a portrait of his wife. Haindl himself was obviously able to see the court card, the goddess Bridget and a concrete person all in one. And the portrait character of this specific card makes it easier. But most of the other court cards? They're too far removed from the mundane humans and their characteristics that appear in other decks as courts

Benebell Wen talks about the attributions of court cards, too. Did you see her review?

http://benebellwen.com/2015/05/24/my-review-of-the-haindl-tarot/

She likes the multiculturality of the court cards, and in theory, I do so, too. But in order to use them, you have to "learn" them: Kali, Odin, Spider Woman. At least to know who they are and what they stand for. And who feels an equal degree of closeness to so many different traditions? It throws the court cards out of balance for me. Which is a challenge, of course.

Well, the whole Haindl deck is pretty abstract, and you have to react to the images. There's little narrative to guide you - especially if you are used to the RWS scenes with their backdrops, props, symbol and story enacted on each card. Actually, the mythological courts give you some sort of narrative. Which should, once you know them well, make reading them easier than the pips. Nevertheless, I find them more difficult.

I read them more as deep character traits or affinities than as concrete persons. That option doesn't work for me with the Haindl.

I'm really sorry - that wasn't very helpful....

PS: Did you see this https://haindlicious.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/court-card-keywords/ Haindlecious post? Quite interesting keywords - have to check them with the cards themselves. All the wisdom is tucked away here at AT...

Zephyros

Isn't this deck Thoth-based? If it is, then it can be used with the GD Courts system.

Nemia

It is more Thoth-based than RSW-based but Haindl went very much his own way in the court cards. They're called Mother, Father, Daughter, Son, they're all based on different traditions/cultures/mythologies, and they're very different from Thoth courts. The family scheme doesn't "fit" the mythological families - Parsival is not Brigid's brother - so one might use the Thoth model of the metaphoric family. But then the concrete names of the courts disturb at least me. Odin and the Venus of Willendorf as parents of Parsival and Brigid? No, that doesn't work for me. Maybe for others.

The Thoth system can maybe help to understand at least the basic idea of this very individualistic, eclectic mix Haindl made here. But I feel that Haindl on purpose did what he did and went quite a distance from Thoth - more so than with other cards.

A knowledge of the Tree of Life always helps. Personally, I found Pollack's book about Haindl's Tree of Life painting not very helpful although the painting is nice enough.... but it's Haindl's own version again. Unfortunately IMO it's not enough to get a key to these courts. Too foggy, too vague, both Pollack's book about the Tree and Haindl's picture. But that's only me of course. Your own short articles here on AT are much clearer than that book. But that's probably another kettle of fish.

Lee

Nemia said:
PS: Did you see this https://haindlicious.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/court-card-keywords/ Haindlecious post? Quite interesting keywords - have to check them with the cards themselves. All the wisdom is tucked away here at AT...

For easy reference, I've quoted my old post below. The court keywords are from the Quest Tarot, and the short phrases which follow them are my own summaries from Rachel Pollack's books.

Lee said:
This thread has inspired me to take another look at the Haindl. I've picked up this deck several times before, and each time I'd leave it again after a few weeks. My problems with it were threefold:

1) I found some of the keywords on the Minors off-putting ("Ruin" and "Cruelty" just don't do it for me).

2) I found the material in Rachel's books regarding the court cards to be less then helpful in terms of how to approach them in a reading.

3) As much as I respect and admire Rachel's work, I've found that each time I get interested in the deck, I feel as if I have to read the books, and I never quite make it through them without feeling overwhelmed and dispirited.

But now I think there are solutions to these problems (some of them from this thread!), as follows:

1) I don't have the revised edition of the 2-book set. I knew some cards had been renamed but I didn't realize so many of them had. Thanks very much, SunChariot, for posting the new card names! Also thanks to mosaica for directing us to the scans of the trimmed cards. So I think the solution to the keywords problem would be to trim the cards and then to memorize the card names, using the new names where they've been renamed. (I do think, in this particular deck, the names are helpful to keep in mind while reading.)

2) For the court cards, I've found that the Quest Tarot court cards, which are based on the Haindl, have useful keywords which really help in terms of reading.

3) If I do decide to pick up this deck again, I think I'll do it without reading any of the books. I think it's important to establish a personal relationship with the cards, and I think the way to do that is to get to know them by playing with them, and not by reading large books about them. So I think the way to go, for me, would be to work with the cards for a while first, and then maybe read the books after I've developed a relationship with them and developed my own personal reactions to the images/keywords.

To that end, I would print out a list of the Minor keywords to keep in front of me while reading with the cards. I'll type out that list here in case it would be helpful to anyone else. For the pip cards, I'm using the original keywords and replacing them, when there are new keywords, with the new keywords which SunChariot provided. For the courts, I'll list the card, the Quest keyword, and a short phrase which I've culled from Rachel's books.

Haindl Minor Keywords

Ace of Wands in the East
2 of Wands: Self-Control
3 of Wands: Centered Power
4 of Wands: Perfection
5 of Wands: Creative Conflict
6 of Wands: Victory
7 of Wands: Courage
8 of Wands: Swiftness
9 of Wands: Power
10 of Wands: Misuse of Power
Mother of Wands: CREATOR. Untamed energy.
Father of Wands: INTELLECT. Keeper of tradition.
Daughter of Wands: LUXURY. Sensual creativity.
Son of Wands: CHARISMA. Sensual hero.

Ace of Cups in the North
2 of Cups: Love
3 of Cups: Overflowing Emotion
4 of Cups: Yearning
5 of Cups: Disillusionment
6 of Cups: Happiness
7 of Cups: Arrogance
8 of Cups: Diminution
9 of Cups: Material Fortune
10 of Cups: Inner Fulfillment
Mother of Cups: MOTHERHOOD. Oldest truths.
Father of Cups: FATHERHOOD. Sacrifice for knowledge; harsh authority.
Daughter of Cups: CONNECTION. Keeping alive the inner flame.
Son of Cups: SEEKER. Courage to act responsibly.

Ace of Swords in the South
2 of Swords: Peace
3 of Swords: Mourning
4 of Swords: Moment of Stillness
5 of Swords: Senseless Fighting
6 of Swords: Thinking with the Heart
7 of Swords: Uselessness
8 of Swords: Interference
9 of Swords: Agonized Thought
10 of Swords: Opportunity in Crisis
Mother of Swords: MYSTERY. Gentle protectiveness, with something held back.
Father of Swords: LEADERSHIP. Harsh, fair analysis.
Daughter of Swords: CONFIDENCE. Dedication.
Son of Swords: FAIRNESS. Compassion.

Ace of Stones in the West
2 of Stones: Harmony
3 of Stones: Creative Work
4 of Stones: The Power of the Earth
5 of Stones: Splitting Apart
6 of Stones: Success
7 of Stones: Stagnation
8 of Stones: Knowledge
9 of Stones: Delight in Existence
10 of Stones: The Richness of the Earth
Mother of Stones: PERCEPTION. Serene creativity.
Father of Stones: GUARDIAN. Quiet helper.
Daughter of Stones: POSSIBILITIES. Explaining the sacred in daily life.
Son of Stones: ADVOCATE. Articulating ideals.

Now let me see if I can find those scissors...

-- Lee

ThreeNine

Nemia,

Thank you for the links, they were all new to me! I'll try incorporating Haindlicious keywords and see how they feel. I agree these Courts are "different" - which is why it's interesting (and problematic) they appear so persistently.

Zephyros,

Pips and Trumps are Thoth-y, but the Courts are unique (Nemia sums it well). There is no coherence in their message so far.

Lee,

Great post, thank you! I was not familiar with Quest Tarot.

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I think I've spent so much time with Haindl because the Rune and I Ching imagery add lovely dimension to the Tarot structure. I also find his Trumps to be particularly rich. But this current streak of Courts is new - and their message is still unclear.

Thank you all for the replies, this gives me more to work with. Then again, no Courts have appeared since posting this inquiry - maybe I've jinxed the streak!

Nemia

I didn't have the time yet to check my edition of Rachel Pollack's book for the original key words - it's possible that Haindl's German were not translated adequately. This is only a suspicion because I noticed that in the German Thoth, there is one dubious translation (interference as Einmischung... it's so much more) and one really wrong one (strife as Streben... that must have been a misunderstanding, streben is to strive, but that doesn't make strife the same as striving!).

I don't know how good Haindl's English was (I found only videos with him speaking High German, with a certain pathos typical of his generation) and I don't know how good Rachel Pollack's German is, but I wouldn't rule out some nuances getting lost in translation. And in tarot, nuances matter.

When I have time, I'll watch the movie with Haindl explaining his tarot - I watched it some time ago but didn't concentrate on the court cards. It's in German. As far as I remember, he didn't address the problem of how to read them at all; for him, his tarot was the expression of his world view, experiences, beliefs and ideas. Nevertheless, it's very interesting to see him at work - very intuitive, and he let the materials guide him.

ThreeNine

Is the Haindl video available to the public? I thought I'd read that Rachel had moved to Germany and lived with Haindl while she wrote the book, but I can't cite a source.

Regardless, these Courts are pressing me to explore their message. Krishna Wand Son returned today. In the past two months, the only court I haven't met is Chief Seattle - who happens to be the only non-mythological character of the set!

Nemia

You can find the videos on Youtube.

Haindl Court Parade

ThreeNine

Nemia

Zephyros

Nemia

Lee

ThreeNine

Nemia

ThreeNine

Nemia