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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Solar Returns


Solar Returns can be traced back to Hellenistic Times but perhaps were at their peak traditional use in the Seventeenth Century - both Lilly and Morin make extensive use of 'Revolutions' in their works. Morin does not make use of Profections, so he sees Solar Returns as the second most important predictive method (followed by Lunar Returns and then Transits). Because of space I'm going to use Lilly's explanations, as they are more concise but Morin's book on Revolutions is an extremely valuable, if not very easy read.

I think I remember Dave having a go at Astrologers who try to read Solar Returns as a variety of natal chart, going from house to house. Lilly and Morin would agree wholeheartedly. Nothing in a Solar Return chart can alter the natal 'promise' - i.e. if your natal chart says your never going to make it big in politics or business, no Solar Return can indicate you becoming President, Prime Minister or the CEO of a multinational. The natal chart is often referred to as a 'radix' or root chart, solar returns and profections are derived from it and can never supplant it.

I have attached a copy of Bill Clinton's SR for 1998 (through to August 1999).

Lilly's first test is if the signs on the SR are the same as that of the radix. The answer to that is no.

Lilly's second test is what planet is Lord of the year (ruler of the SR Ascendant) and is it combust. With Gemini rising the answer is Mercury and being within 8 degrees 44 minutes from the Sun, Mercury is just and only just free of combustion. It is however 'under the beams' (within 17 degrees of the Sun) and is mildly debilitated by position.

Lilly's next test is the position of the Sun by House. In this case the Sun is angular in the fourth and also rules the fourth. The Sun challenges the MC (or is challenged by the MC). Is this a threat to Clinton's presidency? If so he is well placed to resist it.

Lilly's next test is the Moon. 'If the Moon be powerful in her own house (Cancer) or in any of her dignities (the others being rulership, triplicity, terms or face), especially in a nocturnal geniture (Clinton's is diurnal) the evil is diminished, but exasperated if she be both weak and unfortunate'. In Clinton's SR is the Moon is in Cancer (it's own house) and rules the third House. The third is cadent (not good) but does aspect the ascendant by sign through a sextile, so it's not weak and it's not unfortunate.

Lilly then goes on to see if the sign ascending (Gemini) is in square or opposition to that of the radix. Gemini actually trines Libra, so we have another good indication. Lilly also checks to see if there's any square or opposition from Mars or Saturn to the Ascendant. In this case there is no such aspect, though natal Mars does trine the Ascendant, awkward but not fatal by any means.

However there is one bad indication. Lilly says that if the planets are placed in the opposite side of the chart or have opposite dignity (ill dignified in the SR but well dignified in the radix or even well dignified in the SR but ill dignified in the radix) that is an indicator of trouble. In Clinton's SR only two planets are above the horizon (Saturn and Jupiter) and both of these are totally out of sect. The other five are below the horizon including the Sun. In his radix, four planets are above the horizon and the other three are in the first house.

Lilly then goes on to see if any of the SR planets (apart from the Sun) conjunct the natal planets. In this case:

SR Mars conjoins natal Saturn, though this is an out of sign conjunction. This signifies, according to Lilly, short journeys, slackness in business, quarreling, a wound thereby to the face, death or ill to the father'. Well quarreling is certainly going on. It's worthy of note that in the SR, Saturn rules the eighth and Mars rules the twelfth, so there is definite malignity here.

SR Venus conjoins natal Mercury (to 31 minutes of arc). This is a good aspect and one signifying favour of men, and honoured for his learning. This is the stronger aspect by far of the two and adds a positive dimension.

Clinton's SR for 1998-1999 does not suggest that the threats outweigh benefic indications. Benefic Primary Directions are likely to be supported and malefic Primary Directions weakened.

Lilly does not progress the SR chart in any way, though he does look at transits to the SR chart for dates. Morin looks at the lunar returns and transits to both sets of charts. Neither of them adjusts their SRs for precession, or indeed mentions it. Whilst that is something that is not surprising for Hellenistic charts, where precession is of minimal importance by the Seventeenth Century there had been 1,500 years of precession from classical Greece and Rome. Perhaps that's something that should have at least been considered.

Edited to add

I forgot to mention that I have relocated Bill Clinton's SR from Hope AK to Washington DC. Morin argued that any significant change in location should be taken into account - the chart relates to where the person is, not where he was. This is also a fairly common modern practice, though it may well make comparison of the shape of the chart more difficult.
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Profections for Nikki,

Overview July 2009 – July 2010

This doesn’t look a particularly good year. As we have seen planets and points are square to their natal positions. The Natal MC is in the twelfth House not a good year for reputation, career and status. The natal Sun is also in the sixth House again bad for both reputation , status and perhaps work related illness or stress issues. this makes sense, all of a sudden a few months ago i stopped wanting to do my day job, it wasnt a gradual thing. so now i am getting stressed about work, and i have been looking to move which means my health has struggled over the past few months until now.

July 2010 provides an improvement. Planets and points are now sextile to their natal positions and this should indicate a favourable year. However natal Sun and MC are still in the same houses of the profected chart (6th and 12th respectively) so the improvement is a qualified one.

Timings and issues:
Let’s advance the five hylegical (key to life) places by Lilly’s profectional rate of 30 degrees per year. We are currently looking for any aspects to the natal chart positions and possibly to positions in the profected chart. This could be extended to look for links to the Solar Return charts but for the moment we will leave that to one side.

Finally at the end we will try and see how this fits in with the Primary Directions.

Ascendant

The profected Ascendant is in the eleventh House of the natal chart Lilly sees this as ‘signifies a cheerful heart and ‘imports the year to be very prosperous in worldly affairs’ It ‘invites the native to bestir himself (sic), and husband time well whereby he may much advance his private fortune (personal luck and health). Now that seems very good but remember it is related to physical and spiritual well being, it is not related to work or other dimensions.well i can see this as something i will be doing as i am focusing more on my spiritual work as i am aim to go professional in 2011 so this is good.

The Ascendant moved into Pisces from Aquarius on 8th December 2009, resulting in Jupiter becoming the Year Lord. In her natal chart Jupiter is well placed in the first house Jupiter is stronger in the profected chart. Natal Jupiter lies in the fifth House of the profected chart, so we may well expect fifth House issues to become more important. Pleasure, enjoyment creativity and children (if any) are the themes here. Jupiter will tend to lighten things a little – but bear in mind this is one positive change in a not very fortunate chart. We need to see other changes that wil facilitate the favourable directions.yes i have been looking more to have fun and not to be so serious about things, this is the time i am thinking of finally booking a holiday, and trying not to study too much

On the 8th February 2010 the Ascendant sextiled the natal Moon in Taurus. This should have been a good time (assuming we don’t find anything adverse coming up) The natal Moon is in the fourth house of the profection so there should be an overtone of family or home issues, or other forms of real estate. funnily enough this was my moving date, and i couldnt find property i wanted, luckily my friend said i could lodge with her so its cheaper and also its good to have someone to hang out with in the evenings

On 14 March the conditions changed as the Ascendant comes into opposition with natal Mars, in the seventh House of the profection. Stress here with other people. Natal Mars was in the fifth so fifth house may also be affected. emotionally it was a difficult time and i didnt really want to be around people as they seem to only serve to annoy me, and hanging out stopped being fun for a bit

Lastly for this birth year, on 3 June the Ascendant conjuncts the natal 12th House cusp and this may well change the tone for the remainder of Jupiter’s year, if there is nothing to offset it.

The Moon
The Profected Moon is in the tenth house of the natal Chart this ‘inclines the native to be ambitious and seek preferment’. It’s also a good time to ‘follow his (sic) employment industry for it promises much increase.’

On first of August 2009 the profected Moon opposed natal Venus . In the natal chart Venus rules the Ascendant and is positioned in the fourth. Whilst an opposition involving Moon and Venus is hardly the same as an opposition between Mars and Saturn it may well show up as indecisiveness or being pulled in different directions. As this aspect brings together Ascendant ruler, home and work The Moon also rules the IC emphasising the fourth house relationship.

On 23rd August the Profected Moon moved into the eleventh House of the natal chat. And shifted its emphasis to eleventh house matters in a way similar to the Ascendant described earlier.

The next contact the Profected Moon makes is not till 18 May this year when it moves into Pisces, where in some systems it has Triplicity rulership.

The Sun:

The Profected Sun is in the twelfth House of the natal chart. This provides a contradictory view to the initial placement of the profected Moon. Lilly sees this as detrimental to status and reputation and a loss of influence or being sniped at by others. yes this has started to happen within my work environment, the fact i am not enjoying the job stressing me, and my health meaning time off, my reputation as the backbone of the department is suffering, and sadly i dont really care as much as i should.

Initially the good news is that the Profected Sun is in Aries, where it has exaltation. However on 20 August, one month later, the Sun moves into Taurus, where it is peregrine.

On 19th September the profected Sun reached the square of natal Mercury. In the natal chart Mercury is combust in the fourth and rules the Second (income and resources) and the Sixth (dis-ease, servants and pets). In the profected chart Mercury again rules the sixth and also the eighth. Accidentally Mercury is an unfortunate planet in this chart.

In October (22nd) the Profected Sun conjoins the Natal Moon in the twelfth House of the natal chart. This has in many ways the connotation of a New Moon and a fresh beginning. Again the Moon rules the natal fourth, so there is some issue relating to status, reputation and well being involving fourth house matters, i think that this is the time i finally started talking to my flatmate about moving out, and wanting a new start

Last November there were two aspects from the profected Sun to the Natal chart, a square to natal Venus in the fourth (3rd Nov) and a trine to natal Mars in the fifth. Sun and Venus are of differing temperaments, and this might provide some tensions (remember Venus rulerships in the natal chart). The Sun /Mars trine might actually foster rash behaviour. Natally Mars rules the seventh and has intercepted rulership in the twelfth. Did anything manifest at that time. looking back november i was working through a number of issues, but it was a big month in terms on healing and dealing with big past issues with my family, the only rash thing i can think of was cutting a few people out of my life, decided they werent worth having so i culled them...however i do that normally which some people think is harsh. i do remember mis-interpreting a message from a dead relative which lead me into a misguided relationship, if that counts?

On second April this year the Sun profects into the first House. This brings a real improvement in work prospects and good fortune. thank goodness, i keep being told there are job prospects coming up enabling me to move jobs, also it will be nice to get back to normal at work and not feel so dejected and disinterested by everything
The MC

The profected MC is in the sixth House of the natal chart, again this is not a good indicator for success at work.
On 7th October 2009 it squared the natal Sun bringing a tension between reputation, status and work. Accidentally the Sun rules the fifth House of the natal chart and the seventh House of the Profected Chart

On 8th November the Profected MC moved into Scorpio and rulership passed to Mars.

On 8th December the MC squared natal Mercury – a reading similar to the Sun’s square to natal Mercury

On 9th January 2010 The MC reached the opposition of the Moon. Remember that the Moon is the IC ruler in the natal chart. So we have yet another indicator of fourth House and tenth House tensions. In the profected chart the Moon rules the sixth. see the previous comments on work

On 12th Feb the MC reached the sextile of natal Mars. This should have a beneficial effect both because of the favourable aspect and Mars being the new MC ruler. Mars is however a natural infortune, and so there might well have been difficult side effects, either at the time or later.

On 20th June this year the MC will profect into the seventh House. This again should be favourable and may work through the agency of another person. this would be good, i need something good for my vocation. I just picked up work on the side helping to promote someone, so i hope that this lands me other work on the side
The Part of Fortune

The profected Part of Fortune starte the year in the twelfth House of the nativity. On 22nd October it moved into the first House. This is in the first House of natal chart and indicates ‘an apt time to gather wealth’ which might come unexpectedly.

It had no further contacts till 8th Feb 2010 when it sextiled the natal Sun The natal Sun is in the fourth and rules the fifth house of the nativity. This should mark an improvement in fortunes through activities of those houses. as i moved in with a friend i am saving money and thats a big bonus!it also allows me to study more and also have more fun because i have more free money and time

On 12th March it changed signs to Gemini and rulership passed to Mercury who is profectionally weaker than Venus.

On 10th April it will sextile natal Mercury, followed by a sextile to natal Venus on May 26th. Mercury rules the sixth and eighth of the profected chart but here it might bring an improvement as Mercury is the ruler of the Part of Fortune.this would be nice, we shall see i will let you know in a few days time:-)

Venus is the natal Ascendant ruler but also the natal eighth ruler. Hopefully this profection will be beneficial .

The final aspect is to the square of natal Mars on 16th June. This is a stressful aspect and natal Mars rules the natal seventh and has some rulership in the natal twelth.

There are two Primary Directions of importance in this year. The Mercury /Moon of July 2009 and the Sun/sextile of Sun aspect of February 2010. These are both favourable and seem to have supporting testimony from profections about those times.

I’ll leave it for Nik to comment on how far that turned out to be true and how far the other directions for the first part of the 2009/10 Directions and Profections actually manifested (if at all).

all seems fairly true so far this year, thanks Minderwiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz
No rush, I'll leave next year's (July onwards) till nearer the time, then you will be more able to see if they work out or not.
i would really like to know what is coming up for 2010/11, so i can brace myself ....whenever your free as i know your busy.
I have found this fascinating, its interesting to see how you put things together.
Top   #53
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Thanks for your feedback Nik. That's the first time I've tried to use profections in a big way, although I have used them for particular issues.

As there was a reasonable identification of issues there I have some confidence that I can have a go at the July 2010/2011 issues. I'll begin posting for that period back into you original thread, after the Easter holidays.

Have a great Easter and don't eat too many choccy eggs ;-)
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thanks Minderwiz, had a good break...and just a'few' chocs....
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This is awesome Minderwiz! I also think you should write a book. I am following along albeit slowly. Thank you!
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This is amazing!
There's so much more depth to it. And the history is an added plus.
Thank you for posting this, Minderwiz.
If you ever need another guinea pig, I'd like to volunteer.
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Thanks DE, I might well take you up on that at some point.

I'm going to take a look at transits next and then break off for a while to do Nik's next year forecast (in her original thread).

I might then diversify into medical and electional Astrology and, of course horary! which will probably be the first of these three.
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Three cheers for the horary!

I am definitely impressed.
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Transits


Transits have had a role in Astrological prediction since Hellenistic times and, of course, observations of the actual movement of planets dates back into the mists of time. So it would be a natural development to relate the actual movements of the planets to the natal chart positions.

The way in which transits have been handled has varied over time. In Hellenistic times transits were measured in terms of whole signs, so If your Ascendant were in Leo and Saturn is in Aquarius, you would have Saturn transiting your seventh house for over two years, and if there are any planets in Leo, Saturn would be in opposition to those planets during the whole of that time. Even faster moving planets such as Mercury and Venus, would, on average, transit a house (sign) for a month and would aspect planets in other signs (by square, opposition, trine or sextile), or conjoin planets in the same sign, for that month.

By Lilly's time we have something more similar to the modern view. Lilly takes a transit to be a timing tool, and thus it's partile (same degree) aspects that he is looking for.

He is really only interested in the following timing devices:

Transits to the Ascendant or MC: Good transits would be conjunctions, sextiles and trines from Venus and Jupiter. Bad transits would be squares or oppositions from Saturn and Mars. These transits would identify periods of potential good or bad fortune. Whether these potentialities actually came into effect would very much depend on there being similar (in nature) Primary Directions, Profections or Solar Returns.

Transits to the house cusps: Again as before divided into good and bad transits depending on whether Venus and Jupiter or Saturn and Mars are involved. The effect will be related to the house being affected and again will only manifest if there is a similar PD or Profection.

Transits to planets , Part of Fortune, or the Moon's nodes by Venus and Jupiter or Saturn and Mars. Again transits by the benefics tend to indicate good events, by the malefics bad events. The nature of the event would be dependent on the intrinsic nature of the planets and the houses ruled by the planets.

Notice that here the emphasis is on identifying the day (or even hour) of the transit becoming exact, in order to give the timing. We are not looking for vague periods here, let alone the extremely lengthy transits of the outer planets as used by modern Astrologers, or the full sign transits of the Greeks.

Notice also that only four transiting planets are used by Lilly. The two benefics and the two malefics. He doesn't spend any significant time talking about transits by the Moon, Mercury or Sun. Morin does use all seven planets but gives more importance to the benefics and malefics, and to the Ascendant ruler, which might bring in one of the other three.

This only works as part of a system using PDs, or Profections or Solar Returns/Lunar Returns and a consideration of favourable and unfavourable outcomes involves a rather complex comparison of what is in force and on the relative importance of the measures, Primary Directions being at the apex of the pyramid.

In my next post I'll look if there are any supporting transits for Bill Clinton's Two Primary Directions.
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