Traditional Approaches to Astrology

Transits for Bill Clinton.

I'm just going to look at three events for Bill Clinton. The three Primary Directions of 1974, 1978 and 1999. The first two I have identified with his two election challenges. The unsucessful one of 1974 and the second being the successful attempt at the Governorship of Arkansas in 1978.

For the first election in 1974 Bill Clinton had two transits of his first house Jupiter, the first by Mars, just under a month before the election and then by Mercury, the ruler of his twelfth house (and therefore accidentally an unfortunate planet, two days before the election. Both these transits support the flavour of the Primary Direction

In his successful bid for the Governorship of Arkansas in November 1978 Bill Clinton had a sextile of Jupiter to his Ascendant three days before the election and went on to sextile his Venus three days after the election. Also transiting Venus had trined his MC just over a week before the election..

Finally his Sun to MC Primary Direction in January 1999. This coincided with the beginning of his trial in the Senate and promised not only a successful outcome but also an enhanced future. Here there are several transits pointing in different directions. He had undergone a transiting Saturn opposition to natal Jupiter a few weeks before, At the time of the Primary Direction was supposed to take effect, Transiting Mars was about to conjoin natal Jupiter. Both of these would point to an unfortunate outcome or at least greatly reduce the benefit of the Primary Direction. However again at the time for the PD Transiting Venus was conjunct to his Ascendant, and the Moon, ruler of his MC had just transited natal Venus. and would go on to transit natal Jupiter.

Modern Astrologers would not place any real weight on the transiting Moon and I don't see it as a powerful transit by any means, it does support the transiting Venus and together they support the PD. Clearly though this will not be an easy time for Bill Clinton.

Now I have been selective here but the principles behind the approach are that Transits only have significance as support for Primary Directions, Profections and/or Solar Returns. These transits appear to fit in to that approach.

these have been interesting, have been trying to get my head round them

Thanks minderwiz

Well, I know I've come to this thread a bit late, but I wanted to say a huge thank you Minderwiz. The information you have presented is excellent and such a huge help for me. I'm still only about half way through reading the thread but it's been amazing and I really can't thank you enough!

Thanks Sapienza, tomorrow I'm going to start on Horary Astrology, the traditional form of answering questions through Astrology'

For those wanting to read further on this subject, I'd recommend ONE of the following.

A good introduction - Anthony Louis - 'Horary Astrology Plain and Simple'

Good Texts for the Intermediate to Advanced student:

' The Horary Textbook' - John Frawley
'The Martial Art of Horary Astrology' - Lee Lehman

Advanced Text

Christian Astrology Books I & II - William Lilly (advanced because of the difficulty of 17th Century English and a presumption that you have some knowledge of the Astrology of Lilly's time)

Avoid:

'Horary Astrology Re-examined' - Barbara Dunn. This book is unreadable. Unlike all other authors, Dunn spends around 75% of her book on theory with very few examples and often is 'in depth' that you lose track of her argument. She then rushes through some examples. Lilly spends about 25% of his book on theory and 75% working through examples - he is well organised whereas Dunn is not. Frawley and Lehman follow Lilly's general approach but write in good modern English and explain the concepts Lilly can take for granted.

Tune in tomorrow for the first instalment.

What is Horary?

When I first studied Astrology it came as something of a surprise that there was more than just Natal Astrology. I learned about the existence of Event Astrology, Electional Astrology, Mundane Astrology (the Astrology of Nations and Peoples) and even Meteorological Astrology. But two things texts seemed to be silent on were Horary and to a lesser extent Medical Astrology. The latter was mentioned but it's basis and widespread use up till the Seventeenth Century was not really mentioned. Modern Astrologers, seemed embarrassed by both these two (unless the medical stuff was related to homoeopathy or some other alternative but harmless (in their eyes) practice. They both got in the way of 'taking Astrology seriously'.

However over the last twenty years or so, Horary has seen a revival, starting really with Olivia Barclay's 'Horary Astrology Rediscovered' (1990) and Marc Edmund Jones' 'Horary Astrology' (1993) and since followed by a number of texts (see reading list in post above).

I think the interest is in part a reaction to the dominance of the Psychological Approach and in part a real interest in the history and development of Astrology and a willingness to accept that because something is not 'scientific' doesn't make it 'nonsense'. Even so it is still very much a minority interest and there are many who still see it as something to be swept under the carpet unless it undermines their attempts to establish Astrology as an acceptable practice based on clear and well understood 'scientific' principles.

For those of you who principally come to this site because of your interest in Tarot, Horary is not so shocking at all and indeed it does what Tarot is most often used for, answering your own or other people's questions. However it's history dates back to over a 1,000 years BEFORE Tarot. In Book 5 or Carmen Astrologicum, Dorotheus of Sidon (c65 AD) writes about 'Interrogations' - questions - and has questions on marriage, building on land, buying and selling, partnerships, children, and matters of health, amongst other questions.

Just as a Tarotist would have a spread to deal with particular types of questions or issues, the Astrologer has a particular chart for the question. The chart looks like any natal chart but it is cast for the moment that the Astrologer understands the question being asked. No knowledge is required of the natal details of the person asking the question - if they are a stranger, or a first time client then the Astrologer knows very little apart from what is shown in the horary chart.

Here we need to make a distinction, which may be familiar to Tarot readers. The person asking the question is known as the 'querent' and the thing asked about (whether animal, vegetable or mineral) is the 'quesited' The querent is usually assigned the first House of the Horary chart, so the 'Significator' of the querent is the planet which rules the sign on the Ascendant. If I were doing a reading for someone at this moment, Scorpio is ascending where I live, so the querent would have Mars as his or her significator.

It matters not one jot, if the querent has any natal connection to Mars, the signification is for THIS question asked at THIS moment. If several questions are asked at the same time, the querent is Mars for all of them - it is the moment that matters.

The quesited is signified by the planet ruling the relevant house. If the question is about marriage or partnership, for example, the questited is represented by the ruler of the seventh (Venus, ruling Taurus in this case). If the question is about the querent's job or employment, then the signifcator is Mercury, ruling the tenth.

In principle, the answer to a horary question is quite simple, if there's a connection between the planet signifying the querent and the planet signifying the questied, then the answer is likely to be 'Yes'. If there is no connection then the answer is likely to be 'No'. In practice things are a little more complex and we will meet some of the complexities as we go.

Horary questions can deal with matters of great importance, or matters that are extremely trivial. However, the for the querent, the question is something that matters a lot to him or her. 'Will I get the job?', 'Will the house sell quickly?' 'Where is my favourite handbag?' can all be questions that matter a lot to the person asking them.

To finish this first post on Horary, a word on the chart. The chart is cast for the location of the Astrologer,. If the querent is somewhere else when he or she asks the question, that is not usually relevant. So if someone in the Florida asked me the question 'Where is my favourite handbag?' My chart would be set for my present location in Lancashire, England. There are times when I've tried using the querent's location but I have rarely found this particularly useful. Secondly the timing is for when I understand the question, not when the question was asked. So if the question was posed in Florida 6 hours ago, and I just checked my emails, I set the chart for Now and here in Lancashire. If I don't understand the question and have to ask for clarifications, the chart is not cast till I'm sure I understand. Sometimes the querent isn't clear themselves, so often there's a process of talking the issue over till the question becomes clear.

The next real issue for the Astrologer to consider is 'Is this chart radical' - that is does it really describe the question adequately. Nata charts are obviously radical - there's a person born at a specific moment in a specific place and they are testimony to the event. But can we be sure that the chart cast actually shows what we think it shows. The Astrologer has a number of 'considerations' that must be taken into account before judgement can be made on the chart. That will be the subject of the next post.

What a fantastic intro to Horary! Thanks again. The way you explain it makes it so much easier to understand. I'm looking forward to learning more. Still working my way through the older posts and really enjoying the insights.

Hello Minderwiz,
Well, here I go with my retrogrades again.

What effect, if any, does a Mercury retrograde (or other planetary retrograde) have on an Horary chart?

DarkElectric said:

Hello Minderwiz,
Well, here I go with my retrogrades again.

What effect, if any, does a Mercury retrograde (or other planetary retrograde) have on an Horary chart?

Click to expand...

If Mercury is not a significator of querent or quesited, then it very probably has not effect at all (as do any non significator planets).

If Mercury is a significator, then it depends on the question and the chart. If Mercury is the significator of a lost item, then being retrograde may be a symbolic indication that it will return to it's owner. In most, but not all, other circumstances where it is a significator it may be something that suggests that the outcome will not be what the querent wants.

It is difficult to generalise, though. Horary is much more concerned with specifics than natal Astrology and it always comes down to the way in which the planets are located and what their role is. I'll probably touch on retrogrades as I move through the posts on horary but for now the important thing to get across is that not all planets are significators, or play a role in the judgement and for planets that don't play a role, being retrograde is not relevant. For planets that do have a role, being retrograde may well be significant in context.

Is the chart Radical?

The very first question that the Astrologer has to answer is 'Is the chart radical?' - is it a valid chart in the context of the question. This may seem odd to Tarot readers who never ask the question 'Is this spread valid?' having dealt the cards. However the same process is implicit in Tarot. The choice of spread may well be a step in establishing a valid response to a question. For the Astrologer there is no choice of chart - he or she has to take the chart that is cast at the moment of understanding.

The Tarot reader will not only choose the spread but will build up the context and background to the issue and likely prognosis by examining the spread, card by card and 'section' by 'section' before coming to a judgement (or at least I did when I read Tarot). The Horary Astrologer has 'Considerations before judgement' but they are 'considerations' and do not necessarily stop a reading taking place. They often deal with issues that Tarot readers are familiar with - the person who is testing the reader, not seriously asking a question. The 'silly' question asked by someone who is not serious, the querent who hasn't thought things through or who is either asking too late or rushing things.

As far as I can, tell Dorotheus treats such issues as of minor importance but by the Seventeenth Century the 'Considerations' seem to have taken on far more importance. However, as Frawley points out, that didn't stop Lilly answering questions when he came across them (that's money turned away!) and it may also be that Court Astrologers, used 'Considerations' as a get out when they ran the risk of being 'shot' as the messenger of bad news.

So let's have a look at the 'considerations' (I'm using Lilly here, as the premier exponent of Horary).

1 - Does the Lord of the Hour agree with the Lord of the Ascendant, by Triplicity. Now establishing the second of these is easy. In my example from yesterday, Mars is Lord of the Ascendant (Scorpio rising) and Mars is the Lord of the Water Triplicity by night (when I cast the chart). However, how do I find the Lord of the Hour?? and indeed what is it???

A digression

Well I think most people know that the days of the week are called after the planets (indirectly in Germanic countries, and the English are a Germanic race). Monday is the day of the Moon. That is one of the easy ones! Monday begins traditionally at dawn and the first hour from Dawn is the hour of the Moon. Then comes the hour of Saturn, and then Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury and then back to the Moon and a repeat of the process. In essence this is an order from slowest (Saturn) to fastest (Moon). If you repeat this process you will find that the twenty fifth hour (which is the first hour of Tuesday) is a Mars hour, and those of you familiar with French will know that Tuesday is Mardi - the day of Mars. The first hour of the next day will be a Mercury hour and Wednesday is Mercredi in French - the day of Mercury.

Sadly, complicated though this is, it is not yet that simple. Before the invention of clocks, the day was divided into two parts - 'day', the period between sunrise and sunset, and 'night' the period between sunset and sunrise. BOTH these periods were divided into twelve equal hours. Now if you think about that you will realise that apart from the equinoxes (equal day and night) a 'day' hour may be longer or shorter than a 'night' hour depending on the time of year. In April, we have just gone past the equinox, so in the Northern Hemisphere, (where I am) the day hour is slightly longer than the night hour! The idea that 'hours' are different depending on whether it is day or night and what time of year it is is completely alien to us but for thousands of years, that's the way things worked. Luckily my Astrology program can work out the Hour Lord of any chart I cast, and I cast this one during the hour of the Moon (second time around).

Now the Moon rules Cancer, which is a water sign, so it agrees with Mars, the Water Triplicity ruler. So on the first consideration my chart is valid.

For the remaining considerations things are much simpler for the modern mind.

2, The early degrees of a sign rise, that is the first, second or third degree (counting from zero). Such a degree is usually taken to indicate that it is too early to reach a firm judgement. I usually therefore qualify my judgement accordingly, but will still go ahead with the reading.

3. 27, 28 or 29 degrees of the sign is rising. This usually indicates that it is probably too late for the querent to take any action to ensure the desired outcome, or that it's just too late period! In my chart 19 degrees of Scorpio is rising, so my chart is fine on considerations two and three.

4 The Moon must be considered carefully. If the Moon is in late degrees of a sign, especially if it's void of course then things may not easily work out, if at all. There's some argument about the nature of 'void of course' - many Astrologers take this to mean that the Moon will not perfect another major aspect before it leaves its current sign. Lilly took it to mean that the Moon will not apply to a major aspect before it changes sign. That is he allows the aspect to be perfected after the sign change providing that the planets were in applying aspect before the change. A number of writers also take to Moon in the Via Combusta as being evidence that nothing good will happen. The via combusta is the last 15 degrees of Libra and the first 15 degrees of Scorpio. Although he doesn't specifically say so, I get the impression that Lilly doesn't think much of this one. To be honest I don't pay it much attention either, unless I have other reasons to be wary.

5. If Saturn is in the seventh or badly aspects the seventh cusp (by square or opposition) then this is an indication that judgement will be impaired. The reason for this is that The seventh House is the house of the Astrologer - It is used to judge how competent the Astrologer is at that time. I take that not as a reason to stop the reading but to be ultra careful and stress that 'I may be wrong' in the conclusions I'm drawing.

6. If Saturn is in the Ascendant, especially if he is retrograde (Dark Angel here is one place where a retrograde can effect the reading) then this usually shows that nothing good will come of the matter. I take an exception here - if Saturn is the significator of the querent or the quesited then I would not consider it a case for being pessimistic. If Saturn is also retrograde and a significator, then this might have repercussions.

7 If the Lord of the Seventh is unfortunate (in detriment, fall or in the terms of Saturn or Mars) then the Astrologer is not going to perform well.

8. If the Lord of the Ascendant is combust (within 8.5 degrees of the Sun) the question 'will not take' or the querent is 'unregulated'. I take this to mean that it's either a hoax question or the querent is up to no good or is not serious.

9 Lastly if the testimonies in favour of the matter being considered and the testimonies against it are equal then the Astrologer should defer judgement. Again I take that to mean that the querent should be advised things could go either way and perhaps waiting a bit might lead to a clearer view (assuming that waiting is a possible strategy).

Those are Lilly's considerations and he actually takes less space saying them than I have repeating them - mainly because of the need to explain some of the concepts, which Lilly takes for granted his readers are familiar with.

I'd add one more consideration. If the Answer requires action on the part of the querent then he or she has to act. For example if Jack asks, 'Will Jill come on a date with me?' If the chart shows the answer is 'Yes', this does not mean that Jack simply does nothing and Jill comes knocking at his door. Normally Jack will have to ask Jill for the date.

The considerations should only take a few moments to check. Thereafter, assuming the Astrologer thinks he or she can proceed the question is addressed.

Choosing the significators

Usually this is straightforward, the querent gets Lord 1 and the quesited the Lord of the appropriate house (more of that in the next post tomorrow). However there are times when that my not be easily done or even possible.

Consider my chart with Scorpio rising. Lord 1 is Mars and I can award him to the querent. Now suppose that the question is about a child or children. That is a fifth House issue and when I look at the fifth it has Aries on the cusp. So the significator of the child should be Mars. However I can't use Mars for both querent and quesited. One solution is to use the Moon for either querent or quesited. In Horary, the Moon is always taken as having a very important role and can play the role of co-significator, for either querent or quesited. If the question is asked by a mother about her son, then I could use the Moon for the Mother (the Moon being a natural symbol of women) and Mars for the son.

If the question is asked by a man about his daughter I could reverse the signifcators, Mars for querent, Moon for daughter. If it's a man asking about his son, I could use Mars for him and take the Sun as the significator of the son (the Sun being exalted in Aries (it is also the Triplicity ruler in a day chart so the Sun would have even more essential dignity than Mars).

If things get really awkward I'd take a natural significator instead of the sign ruler or almuten. For example in a question about a computer, I could use Mercury, as the signifcator of the computer. For a question asked by a young woman, I could use Venus as her significator. Some Astrologers would use another planet in the appropriate house, if there is one. However, these are very much exceptional circumstances. The general rule is to use the sign ruler unless this proves difficult or impossible.

You should never choose a more dignified planet or better placed planet, simply to get the result that you want - the sign ruler is taken, no matter how debilitated unless there is a very good reason why it cannot be used and the usual reason here is that it has been assigned already as significator of the querent.

A number of Horary Astrologers will also test to see if the Lord of the Ascendant or the sign, describes the querent. This is not the modern sign meanings at all, but the traditional associations of signs with body types - what Lilly calls corporature. Now Mars may not be a female planet but if the querent is female and has a corpulent body, , broad or square face, dusky muddy complexion, and 'sad dark hair' (or any of these) then she has a Scorpio corporature and the Ascending sign describes her.