Tansey Ella
edited
"Mystical Reasons" vs Plain Common Sense Rant
Grip Dellabonte
Hey, Breezes! You reminded me of something when you brought up the child.
Years ago my daughter and I took Tae Kwon Do classes in Houston. Our instructor had a favorite story he would tell anytime a new person asked a question that they were a bit shy or timid to ask.
He said the man who originally started Tae Kwon Do (sorry, I no longer remember his name, just the kernel of the story!) had reached the highest rank of black belt one could achieve in his particular course. People often asked him since he had reached the highest level attainable, who could he possibly learn from? He always answered, "the white belts" - the beginners.
I think it's because they do ask questions in an undistilled form because they have no other way to ask them as yet.
Years ago my daughter and I took Tae Kwon Do classes in Houston. Our instructor had a favorite story he would tell anytime a new person asked a question that they were a bit shy or timid to ask.
He said the man who originally started Tae Kwon Do (sorry, I no longer remember his name, just the kernel of the story!) had reached the highest rank of black belt one could achieve in his particular course. People often asked him since he had reached the highest level attainable, who could he possibly learn from? He always answered, "the white belts" - the beginners.
I think it's because they do ask questions in an undistilled form because they have no other way to ask them as yet.
Umbrae
Near the end of the summer (You’ll notice if you stick around long enough), we always have a spate of newbies who ask questions that us older folks find either amusing or annoying. Last summer I did my rant about Tarot Myths.
I’m gonna repeat here for clarity’s sake:
We can use the sarcastic, “A Class V demon will come out your nose and rip your face off…” oops…I guess I posted that – guilty as charged.
Or we can ask them…"Why do you feel that way?"
On one hand, can a deck be more than paper and ink? Really? Can the power of belief make it more? Do Christians have a powerful reaction when you rip their bible out of their hands and urinate upon it? It’s just a book – paper and ink. Wars have been started for less.
Is it really okay for us to respond – It’s just a myth!
And what if…we are wrong?
What is the power of belief? May I abuse your car? It’s just a bunch of metal and plastic? Can I burn your house down? It’s just wood, concrete and brick? May I dash your beliefs on the rocks of reason?
I’m off topic and rambling again…here are some tomatoes, throw them as you will.
But as I said a year ago…
I’m gonna repeat here for clarity’s sake:
So a new poster who is an anthropomorphist with their deck pops up. We have a choice. We can shout them down “It’s just paper and ink you silly git!”Umbrae said:
Then somebody asked about used decks, and if others could influence your deck. There were responses that used the terms: myths, legends, belief…tossed about were implications about what you choose to believe.
Somebody said something about not just energy being left on cards (and I suppose the term energy may have caused some concern for a few) but mentioned Fingerprints…DNA.
And I pulled up short.
What are fingerprints? A unique pattern of ridges and valleys on our fingers – a unique chaotic image made up of oils and secretions. These oils and secretions and dead tissue flakes, are left behind on everything we touch or brush up against. It is cellular material that carries a distinct deoxyribonucleic acid marker from the originator. A specific construction of a double helix joined by hydrogen bonds between purine and pyrimidine bases which project inward from two chains containing alternate links of deoxyribose and phosphate…each with a specific marker. DNA…the DNA molecule and double helix approximates Phi (1.6180). It measures 34 angstroms long by 21 angstroms wide for each full cycle of its double helix spiral, and their ratio is, 1.619. A cross-section view from looking down at the top of the DNA double helix, describes a decagon (see the back of a Voyager Deck), so that each spiral of the double helix will trace out the shape of a pentagon (think on that one for a bit).
The universe, from the logarithmic spiral of a galaxy’s arm – to the smallest element, including DNA, is constructed using phi. It’s the stuff of life itself).
But I’m rambling.
Fingerprints are said to be unique to each of us, as is our DNA. And we leave a bit of ourselves on whatever we come in contact with. The lead pipe, the candlestick, the rope, the Tarot deck…we touch it…and leave something unique behind.
A fingerprint within a fingerprint.
So let’s take a deck. A virgin deck, never shuffled, never handled. We shuffle with it, we meditate on the cards, examine the art. We impart a piece of ourselves, a bit of biomaterial, on each card.
So do our bodies contain micro-electricity; small charges of electrical current? Could it be different for each of us? Is it in our DNA or cellular material?
I think so, yes...
But if we leave a physical, cellular piece of ourselves behind – logic tells me that a micro-electrical charge may be imparted also.
Each sitter touches our virgin deck. Some shuffle, some only cut. Some only rest their hands on it while pondering their question by candlelight.
Overtime, the deck will indeed contain a little of each reading, a little of each sitter, a little of ourselves. A little good left behind by some, evil left behind by others…. A bit here and there…
Overtime…the deck may very well contain more than the sum of the imagery.
Quantum physics tells us the universe, as we know it does not exist. But we make it so. An electron here exchanges with an electron there. A few neutrinos shoot through (Swiiiiiiiiiiiiiing)…
I’m rambling again.
So there it is – genetic material on our deck, left by every sitter…why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?
...Atomic material within the deck, left by behind by every sitter… why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?
Some of us describe relationships we have with our decks, and are reminded that we are anthropomorphizing our decks.
Hmmm…are we?
Myths, legends... Each myth, each legend had a basis for beginning. To simply say, “Ah it’s a legend, don’t believe it” is a knee-jerk reaction.
It’s a mythtake in my opinion. A blind knee-jerk in the name of rationale.
Stating something is not true because it’s a legend, or a myth, is as heinous as blindly accepting a myth or legend as fact.
In fact it may be worse.
Debunking myths blindly (“Hey I bought my first deck and it didn’t affect me!”) does few any favors; students find no wisdom in such lessons. You may very well obstruct growth by imposing your worldview upon them as opposed to allowing students to find their own view.
For instance, why SHOULD someone be given his or her first deck? Does it make a difference? Will they be a better reader? Will the deck work better?
Without exploring the root of the myth – your syllogism is fallacious. Or as we said as a kid, “Are-Oh-En-Gee – WRONG.”
I really want to see folks stop simply stating, “It’s a myth! Don’t believe it!”
I used to be one of those folks. And I now know that my prior stance was wrong. I no longer hold those beliefs.
Myths have a root.
Fables and myths are what we use to describe what we don’t comprehend. They are our attempts to make the impossible possible.
Wisdom often lies in the undertones. That’s where we find truth.
We can use the sarcastic, “A Class V demon will come out your nose and rip your face off…” oops…I guess I posted that – guilty as charged.
Or we can ask them…"Why do you feel that way?"
On one hand, can a deck be more than paper and ink? Really? Can the power of belief make it more? Do Christians have a powerful reaction when you rip their bible out of their hands and urinate upon it? It’s just a book – paper and ink. Wars have been started for less.
Is it really okay for us to respond – It’s just a myth!
And what if…we are wrong?
What is the power of belief? May I abuse your car? It’s just a bunch of metal and plastic? Can I burn your house down? It’s just wood, concrete and brick? May I dash your beliefs on the rocks of reason?
I’m off topic and rambling again…here are some tomatoes, throw them as you will.
But as I said a year ago…
Ever seen someone shoot Guinness out their nose? It’s a riot.
manhattan9thgate
Breezes said:
that's all so true.
fear, hypocrisy and duplicity are so damaging. it's no wonder that society is so dysfunctional.
I'm glad to hear you have good instincts, always follow them.
by the way, whenever (not often) I get a new deck of cards and I hate them (bad artwork, bad interpretation etc.) I try to give them away and if I can't I just rip them up to shreds and trash 'em. no big deal. no karmic repercussions.
they're a tool, a spiritual tool with potential and perhaps a predisposition to even grow (with you) into something more than what a toaster oven will ever achieve, but the bottom line is that YOU make that determination, not the cards.
I remember many years ago when the whole pagan thing was in it's infancy there was an occult store that some people wouldn't patronize because the owner-workers were allegedly doing black magic or some such thing and they felt that the cards and other ritual books, tools etc. would be tainted and unusable.
oh please.........cheezy mass produced ritual tools ignored by the staff and regarded by them with utter indifference, nobody even cleaned the damn place, all the stuff was coated with a 1/8 inch of dust LMAO!!!!
my point is the staff were a**holes but there was nothing to fear from the merchandise. Honestly, I used to worry more about radiation leakage from my microwave oven.
Any power you give to an object and more importantly to yourself is for you and you alone to give or take away.
Peace
Zephyros
I have no problems with people's spiritual beliefs, as long as they do not become detrimental. If people wamt to cleanse their cards, do special rituals to prepare themselves a for a reading, center themselves or do any other thaings that will helsp them, I suppost that and I do those things myself.
But when people start to put limitations on themselves, saying "can't" or "shouldn't" that is where I draw the line, at least for myself. That is what this thread was meant to do. Never to disparage people's feelings of beliefs.
But when people start to put limitations on themselves, saying "can't" or "shouldn't" that is where I draw the line, at least for myself. That is what this thread was meant to do. Never to disparage people's feelings of beliefs.
euripides
Holy Cow, Umbrae. Great post. Interesting.
I find myself in a strange position, caught between seeing the logical position, the 'its just a stack of paper cards' position just mentioned, and the acknowledgement that we do indeed impbue -things- with power. Whether it is materially there or a product of our minds, does it matter? If the placebo pill cures you because you believe it does, and it doesn't have any substance, does that mean you aren't really cured?
I enjoyed your ramble about the DNA, spirals and galaxies and pentagons.... wonderful stuff.
Yes, a myth is true in the most fundamental way, it speaks a truth about the inner workings of life and spirit that go beyond fact. This is one of the issues I have about Christian fundamentalists - they reduce the bible to a bunch of historical facts, and totally miss the myth. I daren't call it a myth, because to them, a myth is a lie.
I find myself in a strange position, caught between seeing the logical position, the 'its just a stack of paper cards' position just mentioned, and the acknowledgement that we do indeed impbue -things- with power. Whether it is materially there or a product of our minds, does it matter? If the placebo pill cures you because you believe it does, and it doesn't have any substance, does that mean you aren't really cured?
I enjoyed your ramble about the DNA, spirals and galaxies and pentagons.... wonderful stuff.
Yes, a myth is true in the most fundamental way, it speaks a truth about the inner workings of life and spirit that go beyond fact. This is one of the issues I have about Christian fundamentalists - they reduce the bible to a bunch of historical facts, and totally miss the myth. I daren't call it a myth, because to them, a myth is a lie.
HOLMES
hmm
for many the mysticals reasons is the common sense,,
and vice versa.
I see the tarot guides as inner archtypes that exist to help us.. and a guide may take the form of a outer tarot guide in my mental imagery to help me even further.
for I have lost my edge..
there is no wrong with taking a break,, look at what just happend to jessica simpson, she lost her voice from no doubt too much singing (or it could be improper singing techqiue has caught up with her who knows ).
but she sang even when her voice was tired.
who wants to give a tired,, and who wants to recieve a tired reading. ?.
sure I dont' share some of the beliefs "the cards are angry" and I remember being told "the cards are just painted cardboard ".
i personally each deck of cards is differnt, enthused with the energy of its creator by the love or intent in the designs.
when treated with an open mind they can speak to one much more then then just seeing them as images on carboard.
yet with that in mind,, i havent' yet seen an angry jewel, angry tv, or in the case of poltgerist two (the car is pissed ).
i think in the case of angry tarot cards,, the body itself isn't interacting well with the postive energy put into the tarot cards by the user of the card over time.
for cards do have a memory.
just has jewerly does,, even these glasses i wear have a memory for those who can do psychic readings by objects.
seek to understand them,, and find a common ground with the tarot newbies and perhaps we can educate them,, and they can educate us.
there is never just a pure teacher,, the teacher learns from the students and vice versa.
with the common goals of what the teacher wanted to teach and the students perhaps know nothing what they wanted to learn,, just knowing that they had to learn something.
keep the peace ,
for many the mysticals reasons is the common sense,,
and vice versa.
I see the tarot guides as inner archtypes that exist to help us.. and a guide may take the form of a outer tarot guide in my mental imagery to help me even further.
for I have lost my edge..
there is no wrong with taking a break,, look at what just happend to jessica simpson, she lost her voice from no doubt too much singing (or it could be improper singing techqiue has caught up with her who knows ).
but she sang even when her voice was tired.
who wants to give a tired,, and who wants to recieve a tired reading. ?.
sure I dont' share some of the beliefs "the cards are angry" and I remember being told "the cards are just painted cardboard ".
i personally each deck of cards is differnt, enthused with the energy of its creator by the love or intent in the designs.
when treated with an open mind they can speak to one much more then then just seeing them as images on carboard.
yet with that in mind,, i havent' yet seen an angry jewel, angry tv, or in the case of poltgerist two (the car is pissed ).
i think in the case of angry tarot cards,, the body itself isn't interacting well with the postive energy put into the tarot cards by the user of the card over time.
for cards do have a memory.
just has jewerly does,, even these glasses i wear have a memory for those who can do psychic readings by objects.
seek to understand them,, and find a common ground with the tarot newbies and perhaps we can educate them,, and they can educate us.
there is never just a pure teacher,, the teacher learns from the students and vice versa.
with the common goals of what the teacher wanted to teach and the students perhaps know nothing what they wanted to learn,, just knowing that they had to learn something.
keep the peace ,
Abrac
Hi closrapexa-
You seem to be saying that some people act as if a tarot deck is a living entity, infused with a sentient quality which you view as nonsense. Such beliefs seem to harken back to a harsher world when humanity was full of superstition and ignorance. These days we are too clever to believe such nonsense - we know better. But look at the world around us. What has all of our scientific analysis and intellectual prowess yielded? A sterile existence where the only things that count are those that can be perceived with the senses and analyzed intellectually. Who is to say whether a tarot deck is sentient or not. If given a choice between the two, I would choose the former. Animism of itself is not responsible for human cruelty fueled by superstition - unreason (lack of common sense) is. In many ways, our "ignorant" ancestors were a lot more reasonable than us "intelligent" modern humans.
One thing you mentioned that I do agree with is that people are often too quick to blame, whether it be a tarot deck, God, the weather, or whatever. It seems reasonable to assign responsibility where it lies, but often we rush to assign blame rather than seeing a situation as it really is.
You seem to be saying that some people act as if a tarot deck is a living entity, infused with a sentient quality which you view as nonsense. Such beliefs seem to harken back to a harsher world when humanity was full of superstition and ignorance. These days we are too clever to believe such nonsense - we know better. But look at the world around us. What has all of our scientific analysis and intellectual prowess yielded? A sterile existence where the only things that count are those that can be perceived with the senses and analyzed intellectually. Who is to say whether a tarot deck is sentient or not. If given a choice between the two, I would choose the former. Animism of itself is not responsible for human cruelty fueled by superstition - unreason (lack of common sense) is. In many ways, our "ignorant" ancestors were a lot more reasonable than us "intelligent" modern humans.
One thing you mentioned that I do agree with is that people are often too quick to blame, whether it be a tarot deck, God, the weather, or whatever. It seems reasonable to assign responsibility where it lies, but often we rush to assign blame rather than seeing a situation as it really is.
Indigo Rose
euripides said:
Well said, euripides. AT is the best forum I've ever encountered on the Net for that very reason. Mutual respect is essential for open dialogue and the vast majority of AT members I've encountered are quite respectful of diverse opinions.
HOLMES said:i think in the case of angry tarot cards,, the body itself isn't interacting well with the postive energy put into the tarot cards by the user of the card over time.
for cards do have a memory.
just has jewerly does,, even these glasses i wear have a memory for those who can do psychic readings by objects.
keep the peace ,
On this you raise an excellent point, which I failed to acknowledge.
Objects do carry vibrations; as Umbrae's post explored quite well. With that thought in mind, I can see where decks may have energy we can pick up on. I have practiced Psychometry and received detailed images from objects. In addition, I admit I've "felt energy" in my cards before. I still see the cards themself as only paper....but I see that each person infuses some peice of their lifeforce on every object they touch....so to that end, perhaps that is where we get some of these feelings that the "cards are talking to us". Peace
Fulgour
and we got to get ourselves back to the garden
Billion year old carbon... stardust, golden.Umbrae said:
