Suicide and Cards

minrice

Thirteen said:
I don't think we can connect that kind of suicide to devils, towers, swords or any of the rest of those alarming cards, can we? Some times, a person's thoughts on suicide are understandable and reasonable.


That is interesting Thirteen, and a good point. Cards that are interpreted for these people could be those rational cards rather than something earth shattering and huge. That's really where the "extra" spark of a good tarot reading comes in, with the intuition and the feeling the cards generate within the reader rather than just what images are drawn. Devil, Tower, Hanged Man, all may indicate suicide, but perhaps when the more "tame" cards surface and we still have a foreboding sense or feel like something is going on, something more is happening, then we really might be on to something.
 

olivia1

Awesome and very helpful post, Thirteen :) I printed this out. I was wondering though, do you have to specifically ask about a suicide or if these cards just show up that in general this is what this means? This is an interesting thread because I didn't really take into account how to predict suicides prior to all of this.

Thirteen said:
The problem is that everyone--or nearly everyone--has suicidal thoughts sometimes. The question is, are they likely to act on those or not? And if they do, how serious and determined are they? A person can have suicidal musings and do nothing. They can have them and try something hap-hazard and spur of the moment which maybe will or will not succeed. Or they can be determined and they will succeed unless you recognize they're on that track.

9/Swords and Tower is that first track--suicidal musings. Those cards indicate a person in mental distress and they certainly need help and to be told things will get better or can get better. Maybe they'll act on those musings, maybe not, but all that matters is that you help them get past this current mental distress and breakdown.

Other combos of cards can indicate similar worries that might or might not go in that direction: 5/Cups + Tower for feeling such a loss of love and romance that one's can't see the good or get past the depression. 5/Swords + Tower for feelings that one is always a loser and what's the point in going on? 5/Pents + Tower for someone who has lost all their fortune and might well end it. 9/Wands + Tower for feeling that it's all on you and you can't take the pressure any longer. 8/Swords + Tower for feeling trapped with no way out.

I certainly would worry about any of those with the Hanged Man or Death as the "outcome" or future. That would indicate an "attempt" to me. But without them, it might only indicate suicidal thoughts. Of course, you as the reader should always say, "You're having thoughts about giving up. You need to get some help--" no matter what. Because whether they'll act on the thoughts or not, they do need help.

But what you really need to worry about...10/Pents or Judgement with any of those. Why? Because if you get those cards after this trail of feeling loss and failure and hopelessness, then it's possible that your querent has reached a serious decision. They're making their peace, giving things away. They're no longer anxious or fearful or worried. They're calm. Determined. Writing out a note and getting all the things they need to do what they feel they must do.

Odd as it may seem, those cards, coming after the others, would really worry me.
 

Amanda

Thirteen said:
I'd be leery of labeling the Devil as suicide outside of an accidental overdose or someone driven to it by their "demons." Your milage might vary on that, but connecting the Devil to suicide reads to me as labeling suicide as a "sin." And I really object to doing that; so I doubt that I'll ever be offered the Devil in a reading to signal that a death was a suicide, as I'd be hard pressed to read it that way. The Devil, to my way of thinking, is more likely to keep someone alive and tortured rather than freed from pain--emotional, mental or otherwise.

Which is something else we need to keep in mind. There is such a thing as assisted suicide. Not all suicide is from depression or related to a crashing tower, mental illness or anything of that ilk. There are people who say, quite lucidly and rationally, even with a peaceful, happy demeanor, "I've had my run, and I do not want to live like this any longer. It's time to go."

I don't think we can connect that kind of suicide to devils, towers, swords or any of the rest of those alarming cards, can we? Some times, a person's thoughts on suicide are understandable and reasonable.

No, I know what you mean. The Devil doesn't equate to "sin" with me though - I have no religious background whatsoever actually. And now that I think of it, I think the card may have appeared in reverse- she already told me the person passed, I saw the Devil in reverse, what would you get out of it? I guess it was just quickly calculated in my head that this person confronted their "demons" and now they were free from it- so, suicide. If she had asked about the person who passed, and I flipped the cards and saw the Star, I probably wouldn't have come to the same conclusion, so I just take it as she must have just needed that confirmation from me that the cards were on the right track and it was something beyond both of us... I don't really know- it all happened so quickly. But I do agree with you, that the cards really can't be pinned down to something like that. Death is just as personal and individual as anything else is... if you need a clearer answer, ask a clearer question- that's been my experience.
 

Thirteen

olivia1 said:
Awesome and very helpful post, Thirteen :) I printed this out. I was wondering though, do you have to specifically ask about a suicide or if these cards just show up that in general this is what this means?
Well, if we're talking combinations of Tower with 5/Cups or 5/Pents or certain sword cards and such, you can pretty well say that the person is probably suffering through an emotional/mental/stressful time. It really doesn't matter if they've been thinking of suicide or not, they need support, help, advice--including advice to seek out more help and support. And you give them that.

If Death or the Hanged man show up as well, then you might want to mention that it looks like they're having dark thoughts and let them admit to what those are. And then, once again, offer advice and help accordingly.

Really sensing suicide in all this, as Amanda did with the Devil rx., that's in the realm of that "something extra." We can discuss cards that have said "suicide" to us in one form or another, but sometimes it has nothing to do with the cards spelling it out like a sentence. Sometimes, like Amanda, we see a particular card, in a particular spread, having to do with a particular thing and we just know.

It isn't that the card you pulled doesn't have that meaning, by the way, and you're giving it some completely contrary meaning, but rather that a certain, particular meaning rises to the surface as the first to mind, coming before all others. So you hear that someone died, turn up Devil rx, and "suicide" pops to mind over other meanings.
 

Sar

The Hanged Man came up twice, and then I recieved the news of the mother of a friend of mine had hanged her self in her barn.
 

Fostha

I dont see the hanged man as suicide,as he seems to be suspended through choice,and looks quite enlightened and comfortable,(in my decks anyway),maybe 5 cups,drowning your sorrows and drinking yourself to death or as someone else suggested,the fool,as he seems totally carefree,and ready to just take that next step,and they do say people that are really suicidal generally become really upbeat and carefree in the build up to their exit from this world into the next,as they no longer worry about anything/one around them anymore. Again though,i think surrounding cards in a spread would be indicative of any negativity surrounding the querent.
 

Curtis Penfold

I want to give my thoughts on Anna's interpretation that if one interprets the Fool at the end of a set, that the Fool is one who's passed on.

I do recognize this as a possibility, but much of Tarot is symbolic, so to say somebody has died (or even committed suicide) could just as easily mean that somebody has changed as a person, that they have let go of their past life.

I personally believe the Fool could easily be interpreted as coming at the end of the deck. The journey could start out with all these choices of the Magician, and then end with a total letting go.
 

nisaba

Fostha said:
I dont see the hanged man as suicide,as he seems to be suspended through choice,and looks quite enlightened and comfortable,
Suicide can't be by choice? Not even in the case of terminal illness, where it may lead to being more enlightened and comfortable than being painfully alive?
 

Fostha

nisaba said:
Suicide can't be by choice? Not even in the case of terminal illness, where it may lead to being more enlightened and comfortable than being painfully alive?
Suicide is always a choice,the person is choosing not to live no more. You cannot not decide.Even no choice simply equals the right choice.
 

Thirteen

Fostha said:
Suicide is always a choice,the person is choosing not to live no more. You cannot not decide.Even no choice simply equals the right choice.
I think the point is that people do sometimes see suicide as "sacrifice"--they might believe, rightfully so, that their family would be better off without them, and it's better to sacrifice their life for that of their family's happiness.

Leave us keep in mind that Jesus presumably sacrificed his life to help the world. He picked death over life for a higher purpose. So anyone picking suicide for a particular purpose might well be considered the Hanged Man--not because a choice was made, but because it was made for a selfless and enlightened reason; because the person who did it had an insight and saw that it was the way things needed to be.

As for the Hanged man meaning a literal hanging--I certainly would not interpret him so unless other cards strongly suggested it. Which is to say, you're right that he isn't about that.

HOWEVER, sometimes the cards do say things in "literal" ways. The upside-down Chariot is a car crash, the 10/Swords is a stabbing, the Fool is, well, a Fool, and yes, the Hanged Man is a hanging. The cards give you what works to get the message.