Lust and restriction

MasterJm

A Question - you relate Babalon as a model or archetype for some woman - what is yours, as male? And how do you see it operating?

Strong, free, stable, healthy, liberated, very deep loving women is my model or archetype, but i attract conservative, restrictive, extremly selfish, tyrannical, poor women to protect, nurture, heal or support them. Some of them are really liberated and we are living our passion and love for a while, but at the end it becomes drama. I am not a christian, i dont know even what christian church means, but some of these women revealed theirseleves as christian pharisees and we had often strong conflicts about our beliefs. Though i become for them by deep and honest love the selfless surrender, helping them, supporting them, loving really deep, giving everything, sacrificing myself and many things for them, even healing their wounds, but at the end they "kill" me, abandon me, cheat me, exploit me or even abuse me. I am only theoretical in Thelema in the last years, studying. I repeat that one of my initiated thelemites friend has told me "Babalon comes to your life not to stay".

Reading Aleister Crowley, he writes in "Hanged Man": It should be the chiefest aim of the wise to rid mankind of the insolence of self-sacrifice, of the calamity of chastity. Faith must be slain by certainty, and chastity by ecstacy. The idea of sacrifice is, in the final analysis, a wrong idea" (Aleister Crowley, The Hanged Man). And now the discrepancy: "Το him who has not given every drop of his blood for the cup of BABALON all magic power is dangerous. These who refuse their blood to the Cup, who have trambled Love in the Race for self-aggrandizmend are black magicians, the brothers of left hand path" (Aleister Crowley, Book 4). If a man refuses the blood of sacrifice to BABALON will never enter in the City of Pyramids. I feel that i didnt refuse my "blood", so what goes wrong ? Αsking you in good faith.
 

Aeon418

If a man refuses the blood of sacrifice to BABALON will never enter in the City of Pyramids. I feel that i didnt refuse my "blood", so what goes wrong ? Αsking you in good faith.
Are you seriously trying to link your issues with women to the doctrine of the crossing the abyss? :confused:
 

MasterJm

Are you seriously trying to link your issues with women to the doctrine of the crossing the abyss? :confused:

I told you that a initiated thelemite, a friend, your brother, not i, told all these. And yes, he linked the salfsacrifice for a man or woman or a child or something higher with the crossing of the Abyss. I am not a initiated thelemite, i am a high rank "builder" working with another system... There are not my thoughts. I did't try to link nothing and i am not initiated thelemite. I just ask you and i don't get answers. Clear these discrepancies about selfsacrifice, that is 100% christian idea, and anitichristian Thelema and i wil be convinced.

I repeat my question. Until now nobody, i mean a thelemite, answered my question.

Reading Aleister Crowley, he writes in "Hanged Man": It should be the chiefest aim of the wise to rid mankind of the insolence of self-sacrifice, of the calamity of chastity. Faith must be slain by certainty, and chastity by ecstacy. The idea of sacrifice is, in the final analysis, a wrong idea" (Aleister Crowley, The Hanged Man). And now the discrepancy: "Το him who has not given every drop of his blood for the cup of BABALON all magic power is dangerous. These who refuse their blood to the Cup, who have trambled Love in the Race for self-aggrandizmend are black magicians, the brothers of left hand path" (Aleister Crowley, Book 4). If a man refuses the blood of sacrifice to BABALON will never enter in the City of Pyramids. I feel that i didnt refuse my "blood", so what goes wrong ? Αsking you in good faith.
 

firecatpickles

I find the varying opinions and appeals to authority confusing. This deck is difficult enough to study. If we're going to discuss Crowley's perception, we should at least read the original.

A. Crowley said:
This Trump was formerly called Strength. But it implies far more than strength in the ordinary sense of the word. Technical analysis shows that the Path corresponding to the card is not the Strength of Geburah, but the influence from Chesed upon Geburah, the Path balanced both vertically and horizontally on the Tree of Life (see diagram). For this reason it has been thought better to change the traditional title. Lust implies not only strength, but the joy of strength exercised. It is vigour, and the rapture of vigour.

"Come forth, O children, under the stars, & take your fill of love! I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy."

"Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us."

"I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, O man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this."

"Behold! these be grave mysteries; for there are also of my friends who be hermits. Now think not to find them in the forest or on the mountain; but in beds of purple, caressed by magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them; there shall ye find them. Ye shall see them at rule, at victorious armies, at all the joy; and there shall be in them a joy a million times greater than this. Beware lest any force another, King against King! Love one another with burning hearts; on the low men trample in the fierce lust of your pride, in the day of your wrath."

"There is a light before thine eyes, O prophet, a light undesired, most desirable.

"I am uplifted in thine heart; and the kisses of the stars rain hard upon thy body.

"Thou art exhaust in the voluptuous fulness of the inspiration; the expiration is sweeter than death, more rapid and laughterful than a caress of Hell's own worm."

This Trump is assigned to the sign of Leo in the Zodiac. It is the Kerub of Fire, and is ruled by the Sun. It is the most powerful of the twelve Zodiacal cards,' and represents the most critical of all the operations of magick and of alchemy. It represents the act of the original marriage as it occurs in nature, as opposed to the more artificial form portrayed in Atu VI; there is in this card no attempt to direct the course of the operation.

The main subject of the card refers to the most ancient collection of legends or fables. It is necessary here to go a little into the magical doctrine of the succession of the Aeons, which is connected with the procession of the Zodiac. Thus, the last Aeon, that of Osiris, is referred to Aries and Libra, as the previous Aeon, that of Isis, was especially connected with the signs of Pisces and Virgo, while the present, that of Horus, is linked with Aquarius and Leo. The central mystery in that past Aeon was that of Incarnation; all the legends of god-men were founded upon some symbolic story of that kind. The essential of all such stories was to deny human fatherhood to the hero or god-man. In most cases, the father is stated to be a god in some animal form, the animal being chosen in accordance with the qualities that the authors of the cult wished to see reproduced in the child.

Thus, Romulus and Remus were twins begotten upon a virgin by the god Mars, and they were suckled by a wolf. On this the whole magical formula of the city Rome was founded.

Reference has already been made in this essay to the legends of Hermes and Dionysus.

The father of Gautama Buddha was said to be an elephant with six tusks, appearing to his mother in a dream.

There is also the legend of the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove, impregnating the Virgin Mary. There is here a reference to the dove of Noah's Ark, bringing glad tidings of the salvation of the world from the waters. (The dwellers in the Ark are the foetus, the waters the amniotic fluid.)

Similar fables are to be found in every religion of the Aeon of Osiris: it is the typical formula of the Dying God.

In this card, therefore, appears the legend of the woman and the lion, or rather lion-serpent. (This card is attributed to the letter Teth, which means a serpent.)

The seers in the early days of the Aeon of Osiris foresaw the Manifestation of this coming Aeon in which we now live, and they regarded it with intense horror and fear, not understanding the precession of the Aeons, and regarding every change as catastrophe. This is the real interpretation of, and the reason for, the diatribes against the Beast and the Scarlet Woman in the XIII, XVII and XVIII-th chapters of the Apocalypse; but on the Tree of Life, the path of Gimel, the Moon, descending from the highest, cuts the path of Teth, Leo, the house of the Sun, so that the Woman in the card may be regarded as a form of the Moon, very fully illuminated by the Sun, and intimately united with him in such wise as to produce, incarnate in human form, the representative or representatives of the Lord of the Aeon.

She rides astride the Beast; in her left hand she holds the reins, representing the passion which unites them. In her right she holds aloft the cup, the Holy Grail aflame with love and death. In this cup are mingled the elements of the sacrament of the Aeon. The Book of Lies devotes one chapter to this symbol.

Waratah-Blossom

Seven are the veils of the dancing-girl in the harem of IT.
Seven are the names, and seven are the lamps beside Her bed.
Seven eunuchs guard Her with drawn swords; No man may come nigh unto Her.
In Her wine-cup are seven streams of the blood of the Seven Spirits of God.
Seven are the heads of THE BEAST whereon She rideth.
The head of an Angel: the head of a Saint: the head of a Poet:
the head of an Adulterous Woman: the head of a Man of Valour:
the head of a Satyr: and the head of a Lion-Serpent.

Seven letters hath Her holiest name; and it is

babalon.gif



This is the Seal upon the Ring that is on the Forefinger of IT:
and it is the Seal upon the Tombs of them whom She hath slain,.

Here is Wisdom. Let him that hath Understanding count the Number of Our Lady; for it is the Number of a Woman; and Her Number is
An Hundred and Fifty and Six.

There is a further description in The Vision and the Voice. (See Appendix.)

There is in this card a divine drunkenness or ecstasy. The woman is shown as more than a little drunk, and more than a little mad; and the lion also is aflame with lust. This signifies that the type of energy described is of the primitive, creative order; it is completely independent of the criticism of reason. This card portrays the will of the Aeon. In the background are the bloodless images of the saints, on whom this image travels, for their whole life has been absorbed into the Holy' Grail.

"Now ye shall know that the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space is the prince-priest the Beast; and in his woman called the Scarlet Woman all power is given. They shall gather my children into their fold; they shall bring the glory of the stars into the hearts of men.

"For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight."

This sacrament is the physical-magical formula for attaining initiation, for the accomplishment of the Great Work. It is in alchemy the process of distillation, operated by internal ferment, and the influence of the Sun and Moon.

Behind the figures of the Beast and his Bride are ten luminous rayed circles; they are the Sephiroth latent and not yet in order, for every new Aeon demands a new system of classification of the Universe.

At the top of the card is shown an emblem of the new light, with ten horns of the Beast, which are serpents, sent forth in every direction to destroy and re-create the world.

Further study of this card may be made by close examination of Liber XV (Magick, pp.345 sqq.).
 

MasterJm

Are you seriously trying to link your issues with women to the doctrine of the crossing the abyss? :confused:

Dear brother, i think Aleister Crowley was the first who tried to link his issues with women to the doctrine of the crossing the abyss:


Aleister Crowley believed that many of his lovers and magical companions were playing a cosmic role, even to the point of fulfilling prophesy. The following is a list of women that he considered to have been (or might have been) scarlet women (quotes are from The Law is for All):

Rose Edith Crowley, Crowley's first wife. —Put me in touch with Aiwas; see Equinox 1, 7, "The Temple of Solomon the King." Failed as elsewhere is on record.
Mary d'Este Sturges —Put me in touch with Abuldiz; hence helped with Book 4. Failed from personal jealousies.
Jeanne Robert Foster —Bore the "child" to whom this Book refers later. Failed from respectability.
Roddie Minor —Brought me in touch with Amalantrah. Failed from indifference to the Work.
Marie Rohling —Helped to inspire Liber CXI. Failed from indecision.
Bertha Almira Prykrl —Delayed assumption of duties, hence made way for No. 7.
Leah Hirsig —Assisted me in actual initiation; still at my side, An XVII, Sol in Sagittarius.
Leila Waddell—Laylah, Crowley's muse and inspiration during the writing of The Book of Lies and for years afterwards.
 

Aeon418

Dear brother, i think Aleister Crowley was the first who tried to link his issues with women to the doctrine of the crossing the abyss:
You are in error. He did not link his issues with women to crossing the abyss. In fact when he made the crossing in 1909 he was accompanied by a man who at one point ritually sodomized him. This was, for him, part of his draining his blood into the cup of Babalon. Up until that point he was holding his homosexual side back from the Great Work.

Aleister Crowley believed that many of his lovers and magical companions were playing a cosmic role, even to the point of fulfilling prophesy.
Crowley externalised a lot of things. In way it was a symptom of the Book of the Law being particular to him and his life. But you're not Crowley. So just because you also have problems with women doesn't mean there's a connection.

The following is a list of women that he considered to have been (or might have been) scarlet women.
The Scarlet Woman is an 'office'. It is not Babalon herself.
 

MasterJm

You are in error. He did not link his issues with women to crossing the abyss. In fact when he made the crossing in 1909 he was accompanied by a man who at one point ritually sodomized him. This was, for him, part of his draining his blood into the cup of Babalon. Up until that point he was holding his homosexual side back from the Great Work

Οkey, what's the difference ? He linked his issues with men to crossing the abyss. Why it's not permitted to me to link that with a woman or anyone else ?


Crowley externalised a lot of things. In way it was a symptom of the Book of the Law being particular to him and his life. But you're not Crowley. So just because you also have problems with women doesn't mean there's a connection.

I am not megalomaniac to believe that i am Crowley. But i am sure that my life - WITHOUT INTENTION- was a long way to sacrifice, dedication and selfless giving to people and high ideals, and of course a long way to initiation.


The Scarlet Woman is an 'office'. It is not Babalon herself.

Okey, so what ? Could you answer please my question about the selfsacrifice discrepancy οr have i to make repeat third time ? Whenever i ask that, there is no thelemite to answer me.
 

Aeon418

Οkey, what's the difference ? He linked the issue with a man to crossing the abyss. Why it's not permitted to me to link that with a woman or anyone else ?
Because you appear to mixing the whole thing up in a horribly literal way with some complete guff about you being 'supposedly' selfless with women who proceed to treat you badly. Well if you're so selfless why are you crying about it? :confused:

Okey, so what ? Could you answer please my question about the selfsacrifice discrepancy οr have i to make repeat third time ? Whenever i ask that, there is no thelemite to answer me.
The answer is right there in the chapter on the Hanged Man.
Aleister Crowley said:
The whole idea of sacrifice is a misconception of nature
What 'appears' to be sacrifice from a lower persepctive, turns out to be nothing of the sort once that perspective has been transcended. This applies to both the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel and the Crossing of the Abyss. Both have elements that initially 'appear' to be self-sacrificial, but both turn out to misconceptions based on the defects of limited perception.
 

MasterJm

Because you appear to mixing the whole thing up in a horribly literal way with some complete guff about you being 'supposedly' selfless with women who proceed to treat you badly. Well if you're so selfless why are you crying about it? :confused:

"Supposedely"....you have the right to question my nature, because you don't know me. Because that is love my friend, not a "precast" initiation and rituals in the desert or in a Lodge. In the Cup there are mingled blood with TEARS.
 

ravenest

Strong, free, stable, healthy, liberated, very deep loving women is my model or archetype, but i attract conservative, restrictive, extremely selfish, tyrannical, poor women to protect, nurture, heal or support them. Some of them are really liberated and we are living our passion and love for a while, but at the end it becomes drama. I am not a christian, i dont know even what christian church means, but some of these women revealed theirseleves as christian pharisees and we had often strong conflicts about our beliefs. Though i become for them by deep and honest love the selfless surrender, helping them, supporting them, loving really deep, giving everything, sacrificing myself and many things for them, even healing their wounds, but at the end they "kill" me, abandon me, cheat me, exploit me or even abuse me. I am only theoretical in Thelema in the last years, studying. I repeat that one of my initiated thelemites friend has told me "Babalon comes to your life not to stay".

I am wondering if you see the issue here ? I asked you what YOUR archetype is as a male - you see some woman as a Scarlet Woman or Babalon ... how do you see your archetype as a male? But you described your dream woman. Not her ... YOU!

I was trying to get you to think about yourself as a man... not a woman

On a totally different subject ; dealing with women ... if it is love and an unconditional love it wont matter, you will give freely. A man can do that AND AT THE SAME TIME not put himself in a silly compromising situation ... love is not pandering to peoples faults nor opening oneself to abuse... although many a woman in my life assumed it was.

When things go off track (or people realise their games are not working) fine ...dont pander to it ... lover, if thou wilt depart ... or stay and grow and get even better love ... whatever ... its up to them and the the development of the self. In this situation, maybe that is what your friend means by 'Scarlet Women' not staying around.

I think what you really want is a wife or companion ... IMO that is totally something different.


Reading Aleister Crowley, he writes in "Hanged Man": It should be the chiefest aim of the wise to rid mankind of the insolence of self-sacrifice, of the calamity of chastity. Faith must be slain by certainty, and chastity by ecstacy. The idea of sacrifice is, in the final analysis, a wrong idea" (Aleister Crowley, The Hanged Man). And now the discrepancy: "Το him who has not given every drop of his blood for the cup of BABALON all magic power is dangerous. These who refuse their blood to the Cup, who have trambled Love in the Race for self-aggrandizmend are black magicians, the brothers of left hand path" (Aleister Crowley, Book 4). If a man refuses the blood of sacrifice to BABALON will never enter in the City of Pyramids. I feel that i didnt refuse my "blood", so what goes wrong ? Αsking you in good faith.

As Aeon pointed out it is a matter of perspective and development .... P.O.V.

Okay I can admit it is confusing; take this example;

When beginning banishing work one tends to push out, blast and make a clear space ... its a formula of denial in a way but it works for a stage and a time. Later one banishes by invoking everything and balancing opposites thus creating a type of 'null space' . it might be 'dangerous' to play with invoking all forces in a magical circle if you aren't ready for it ( and invoking Scarlet Women). One could say, "What the hell is Crowley on about; here he says to banish and make a clear space, but here he says to banish and let everything come in.

I had a GF for a bit (who was Thelemite ) if I didnt like something she would bitch "You are supposed to see everything as a particular dealing of God with your soul!"

Me .... "Not until I am a Master of the Temple."

I dont mean to belittle or be disparaging but the journey has just begun ... concentrate on getting your shots and passport in order and some good equipment before you start trying to accomplish latter parts of the journey.

If you want to practice what Crowley outlines seriously it needs to be learnt the right way and in stages ... with the relevant system and safeguards ... like anything, from wind surfing to electrical engineering - magick is NOT a short-cut. Preferably with a person or system that understands what is going on and how to apply the lessons and teachings in a proper order and grade and help show how they can apply to your real life situation. Flying by the seat of ones pants is tricky .... worse when you get bad advice or have the map upside down.