Hierophant's sadistic aspect

Always Wondering

Master Jim said:
Trying to understand the meaning of the following. Could anyone help me ? What exactly is the sadistic aspect to this card ?
Here is Snuffin’s crack at it. http://hermetic.com/osiris/legendofpasiphae.htm

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." AL 2:21
This verse never makes more sense to me than when I get a little down or discouraged and start to feel sorry for myself. It is a wretched and rather weak place for me to be. And though it happens and I go there, it is not a place to stay and wallow. It zaps my strength and my joy of this world. In times like this the verse gets me back to making the most out of life.
A very simple interruption, I admit. But sometimes life is that simple and it works.

That and what Ravenest said. We go through this once or twice a year. And no, I haven’t sacrificed any babies. :rolleyes:
 

ravenest

yes, once or twice a year .... for years on end.

It seems a reasonable question from a new comer ... I dont know why others who have been here all though that support new peoples doubts though :confused:
 

Zephyros

This verse never makes more sense to me than when I get a little down or discouraged and start to feel sorry for myself. It is a wretched and rather weak place for me to be. And though it happens and I go there, it is not a place to stay and wallow. It zaps my strength and my joy of this world. In times like this the verse gets me back to making the most out of life.
A very simple interruption, I admit. But sometimes life is that simple and it works.

That and what Ravenest said. We go through this once or twice a year. And no, I haven’t sacrificed any babies. :rolleyes:

I wholly agree. I am not a Thelemite (insomuch as I refuse to commit myself to a definition) but I am a sympathizer, of sorts, and I sometimes think I live in some sort of parallel reality in that I never knew Crowley was "evil" until well into my Thoth studies, and "Thelemic cruelty" was also unknown to me. I guess it pays to be disconnected. :)

Anyway, that verse you spoke of is one of my favorites, and for the same reasons. I suppose one could call it an "affirmation," if that word hadn't been irreparably corrupted by New Age. I suppose you could even call me a "born again Thelemite," (theoretically, because you couldn't) because I "discovered" Thelema at one of the darkest periods of my life and it served me well in reminding me of the innate power present in everyone, whether they know it or not. Power need not entail cruelty, but it can certainly seem that way from the outside.

It is also important to understand that many concepts in the Book of Law had to be reinvented to suit the new Aeon (whether one believes that supernatural forces were involved or not, my own jury is still out on that one). When it says that "compassion is the vice of kings" it still doesn't preach cruelty, and you don't have to take my word for it, the BoL itself supports many of its doctrines in several places. Compassion implies pity, and pity implies superiority. I have no right to feel superior to anyone, hence I have no compassion. How come I'm not a deranged serial killer then? What replaces compassion, so that society can function?

I suppose everyone has their own answer for that, mine is reverence. Every man and every woman is a star, there are seven billion gods walking the earth, each of them just as powerful as any. So powerful are these gods, that to feel compassion for them is to belittle them, to besmirch their inherent divinity. Imagine asking a Jew if they feel pity and compassion for Yahweh, the idea is absurd. And so it is with how I see Thelema. The problem is, real people feel suffering and need help, unlike Yahweh, so how is that resolved? Again through reverence. I need those around me to be strong, healthy, capable and powerful, because their freedom is mine, and I can only be free if others share the same privilege.

Now, it would be a mistake to equate Thelema with libertarianism or any other political or social doctrine. This is seen in real-world terms in that the Christian right in the US is the economically conservative side, eschewing all forms of social safety nets. To an observer, one would think that the charitable precepts of Christianity would mean every believer would be a socialist, but this is obviously not the case. In their view, being good and charitable means leaving people in the cold, thereby empowering them to rise out of their circumstances (I both vehemently disagree with this view, as well as admit that I am being simplistic in presenting it). You can be a Thelemite libertarian, or a communist, and the ideas presented in the BoL can be directed to either of these philosophies. Just as people of all walks of life have many different opinions, I would assume not all Thelemites consider When Atlas Shrugged a Class A document.

Like ravenest said, Thelema is difficult to understand. While I disagree with him that it can "only" be understood and experienced through participation in some kind of initiatory process, I do agree with the general sentiment. The Law is for all, and there are probably more Thelemites living who have never heard the word, than those who know all about it.

It is Thelema, not Crowleyanity, and his life is immaterial for anyone trying to practice their Wills. He did not try to present himself as a role model, and encouraged people to take their own paths. Maybe he really was an awful, sadistic person (which is another argument) but that still doesn't mean Thelema is sadism. That's just projection, and it's wrong. Jesus was a good sort, then why was there an Inquisition? How come the double standards?

Lastly, let's have some tolerance around here, hmmm? Lately Christians "detesting life" have been the target, and although I'm not accusing Abrac of anything, changing "Thelemite" to "Jew" and "sadist" to "moneylender" would have the post deleted so fast it would make ATs servers spin. There is no difference, and belittling another's faith, whatever it is, even trying to take the easy way out with "it's only my opinion" is still what it is, and let's not say that word everybody's thinking about right now. Capisce?
 

Aeon418

yes, once or twice a year .... for years on end.

It seems a reasonable question from a new comer ... I dont know why others who have been here all though that support new peoples doubts though :confused:

I see it's that time of year again. :laugh:
 

ravenest

Deck the posts
with boughs of folly
fa la la la laaaa
la la la laaaar.
 

ravenest

I see it's that time of year again. :laugh:

This myth never ends. It is time to take peace to the next level. We are being called to explore the universe itself as an interface between wonder and nature.

Imagine a blossoming of what could be. We must learn how to lead unrestricted lives in the face of stagnation. We must beckon ourselves and bless others.
 

Richard

Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla Walla, Wash, and Kalamazoo!
Nora's freezin' on the trolley,
Swaller dollar cauliflower Alleygaroo!
Don't we know archaic barrel,
Lullaby Lilla Boy, Louisville Lou.
Trolley Molly don't love Harold,
Boola Boola Pensacoola Hullabaloo!

—Walt Kelly​
 

Barleywine

This myth never ends. It is time to take peace to the next level. We are being called to explore the universe itself as an interface between wonder and nature.

Imagine a blossoming of what could be. We must learn how to lead unrestricted lives in the face of stagnation. We must beckon ourselves and bless others.

Let's have less mystical profundity and more hard-headed rebuttal here! :D Just kidding, of course, it's all good . . . even when I have to crack your sentences like an oyster to get at the nugget of truth inside. (Oh, and can I have some of what you're smoking?)

It's easy to see why the Thelemic neophyte weaned on the politically-correct inanities of 21st century society would find the uncompromising language in Liber AL exceptionally harsh and unsettling upon first encounter. I first read it when I was still an avid fan of Ayn Rand's paean to the individual, so I just saw Crowley in simple terms as the occult Howard Roark or John Galt, "chastising according to their desserts" the mewling apologists for the Nietzschean "duty" to help others weaker than oneself ("altruism" by any other name . . . ) Philosopher Max Scheler says "Love for the small, the poor, the weak, and the oppressed is really disguised hatred, repressed envy, an impulse to detract, etc., directed against the opposite phenomena: wealth, strength, power, largesse." I don't think Crowley EVER suffered from any such delusions. My philosophy has since matured and now I see that the openly hostile sentiments espoused in Liber AL are primarily just an allegorical device. But even back then I didn't feel any compulsion to go buy a pair of studded jack-boots. Pure Will properly discharged has no need to stoop to such thuggish theatrics (but it does make for a rousing read :)).

Regarding religions, I don't play favorites, I disdain them all equally.
 

ravenest

Let's have less mystical profundity and more hard-headed rebuttal here! :D Just kidding, of course, it's all good . . . even when I have to crack your sentences like an oyster to get at the nugget of truth inside. (Oh, and can I have some of what you're smoking?)

.

DANG! ... Busted .... now I guess he gets a copy too.
 

ravenest

It's easy to see why the Thelemic neophyte weaned on the politically-correct inanities of 21st century society would find the uncompromising language in Liber AL exceptionally harsh and unsettling upon first encounter. I first read it when I was still an avid fan of Ayn Rand's paean to the individual, so I just saw Crowley in simple terms as the occult Howard Roark or John Galt, "chastising according to their desserts" the mewling apologists for the Nietzschean "duty" to help others weaker than oneself ("altruism" by any other name . . . ) Philosopher Max Scheler says "Love for the small, the poor, the weak, and the oppressed is really disguised hatred, repressed envy, an impulse to detract, etc., directed against the opposite phenomena: wealth, strength, power, largesse." I don't think Crowley EVER suffered from any such delusions. My philosophy has since matured and now I see that the openly hostile sentiments espoused in Liber AL are primarily just an allegorical device. But even back then I didn't feel any compulsion to go buy a pair of studded jack-boots. Pure Will properly discharged has no need to stoop to such thuggish theatrics (but it does make for a rousing read :)).

Regarding religions, I don't play favorites, I disdain them all equally.

Good point - its an age old debate .

I suggest that anyone who is interested in the ESSENTIAL PHILOSOPHICAL ARGUMENT at the interior of this thread read Plato's 'Gorgias'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias_(dialogue) - the whole 'might is right thing' ... or is it? debate ... plus some 'side info' on discussion and dialogue.

[ It also includes a section on internet forum discussions : (@ Section 457) " I expect, Gorgias, that you as well as I have had no small practice in arguments, and have observed the following fact about them, that it is not easy for people to define to each other the matters which they take in hand to discuss, and to make such exchange of instruction as will fairly bring their debate to an end: no, if they find that some point is in dispute between them, and one of them says that the other is speaking incorrectly or obscurely, they are annoyed and loose their temper and accuse one another of speaking from motives of personal spite and think the remark comes from jealousy of themselves, and in a spirit, in an endeavour to score a victory, of contention rather than of inquiry into the matter proposed for discussion. In some cases, indeed, they end by making a most disgraceful scene, with such abusive expressions on each side that the bystanders feel vexed on their own account that they ever considered it worth their while to to listen to such people in the first place." ] :)