Minchiate - Prudence

The Prudence card, or Wisdom card, is the one cardinal virtue that is separated from the other three cardinals, 6. Temperance, 7. Strength and 8. Justice. Why isn't it numbered "9?" It is numbered "17." Is there a relationship in that its value is "8," and so is that of Justice?

I have read somewhere that the Hermit actually took on the characteristics of the remaining 4 virtues (one pagan, and the three "holy" or ecclesiasticals) and therefore was unneeded eventually.

What led me to this discussion was what I read in our previous thread about the Fool being the opposite of Wisdom. Is the Hermit therefore the opposite of the Fool? In Minchiate the "Hermit" card is 11. Time.

If the Time card is the Hermit, then doesn't this make an argument for the Hermit subsuming the remaining virutes, falacious?

Assuming I am correct, it leads us to the next question: What happened to the remaining virtues and why were they eventually omitted? Was it because they were blatantly "Christian?"

KK

The Wisdom of the Fool
The Seven Deadly Sins, A Convenient Guide to Eternal Damnation

kilts_knave said:

I have read somewhere that the Hermit actually took on the characteristics of the remaining 4 virtues (one pagan, and the three "holy" or ecclesiasticals) and therefore was unneeded eventually.

What led me to this discussion was what I read in our previous thread about the Fool being the opposite of Wisdom. Is the Hermit therefore the opposite of the Fool? In Minchiate the "Hermit" card is 11. Time.

If the Time card is the Hermit, then doesn't this make an argument for the Hermit subsuming the remaining virutes, falacious?

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I resume in my own words, just to make sure I understand, so please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the hermit may represent Justice, Strenght, Temperance and Prudence,
as these cards are in the Minchiate deck, the Hermit is no longer needed and therefor not present in the Minchiate deck.
BUT
- Time card is 11 and so Time may be the Hermit as he is the 11th card in other decks
- Time may represent the other virtues Faith, Hope and Charity.

Did I do well???
Now it gets difficult for me. I do not understand why Time would represent any of the virtues as they are all present in the Minchiate deck on their own? And do all cards have to be opposites of each other?

kilts_knave said:

What led me to this discussion was what I read in our previous thread about the Fool being the opposite of Wisdom. Is the Hermit therefore the opposite of the Fool?

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Then, discussing Prudence, what is her opposite card? And why? This is difficult stuff. I bumped the topic of the Minchiate again after so many tries of other people but I hope I can keep up...

kilts_knave said:

Assuming I am correct, it leads us to the next question: What happened to the remaining virtues and why were they eventually omitted? Was it because they were blatantly "Christian?"

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure but the whole deck strikes me as being not so Christian. Of course it is, it is made in a time and country where Christianity ruled all lifes, but where the Marseille decks seem to stress that it is a child from it's Christian time in 14 hundred something, the Minchiate (Etruria) doesn't. No papesse, pope or judgement day. These three I find typically Christian. The devil is not just a Christian invention and the so called theological virtues missing as well make me think that perhaps the maker(s) of this deck had a "non-Christian" deck in mind. As non-Christian as possible for that time. Which makes it more interesting to use for me. Were the makers of the deck perhaps some sort of rebellions? Or openly pre-humanistics as living in 1760? So far now my thoughts.
Blessings

Edited to add picture of Prudence (Minchiate Etruria)

A few articles on Prudence:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0282.html
http://members.tripod.com/nicolaa5/articles/vice.html
http://www.blupete.com/Commentary/PrudTempFortNov'00.htm

I will try to comment later, still reading now

These new threads and posts about the Minchiate are excellent. I don't know this kind of decks, and this is a good opportunity to come to know them a little more!

kilts_knave said:

I have read somewhere that the Hermit actually took on the characteristics of the remaining 4 virtues (one pagan, and the three "holy" or ecclesiasticals) and therefore was unneeded eventually.

What led me to this discussion was what I read in our previous thread about the Fool being the opposite of Wisdom. Is the Hermit therefore the opposite of the Fool? In Minchiate the "Hermit" card is 11. Time.

Click to expand...

I think that the Hermit originally was Time. The old man with an hourglass in Visconti Sforza is a quite conventional representation of time. Also the different image we find in the Bologna Tarot (an old winged man) is a common representation of time.

More generally, I think it difficult for the image of a man to represent a concept that is feminine in gender, such as La Prudenza.
For instance in Cesare Ripa you can read:
Ripa's description is much more complex than the card posted by Dwaas, but the Mirror is always there.

Dwaas said:

I'm not so sure but the whole deck strikes me as being not so Christian. Of course it is, it is made in a time and country where Christianity ruled all lifes, but where the Marseille decks seem to stress that it is a child from it's Christian time in 14 hundred something, the Minchiate (Etruria) doesn't. No papesse, pope or judgement day. ..... Were the makers of the deck perhaps some sort of rebellions? Or openly pre-humanistics as living in 1760?

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I think the main reason for these differences can be found in the geographical origin of the Minchiate. Florence was a powerful state, ruled by a Gran Duca, and often in conflict with its powerful neighbour: Rome and the Pope.
I think the transformation of the Angel of Judgement into Fame is particularly interesting, but we will discuss this in a Fame thread

Marco

Dwaas said:

Time may represent the other virtues Faith, Hope and Charity.

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I hadn't thought of this before. The Minchiate has all seven Virtues

And do all cards have to be opposites of each other?

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I do not see any of the cards as total opposites. I am now questioning whether or not the Fool is the exact opposite of Prudence, when in literary texts of the day (as Helvetica points out) the Fool was seen as the Wise man and vice versa, as a device more than anything.

...discussing Prudence, what is her opposite card?

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The Devil card is the opposite of the Virtues, as it is the embodiment of physicality and non-virtue.

I'm not so sure but the whole deck strikes me as being not so Christian.

Click to expand...

I find this a breath of fresh air! I have previously been "turned off" of other decks because of rich Catholic symbolism that I really don't relate to.

... the so called theological virtues missing as well make me think that perhaps the maker(s) of this deck had a "non-Christian" deck in mind.

Click to expand...

Faith, Hope and Charity are the theological virtues.

kilts_knave said:

I find this a breath of fresh air! I have previously been "turned off" of other decks because of rich Catholic symbolism that I really don't relate to.

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That is why I like this deck so much too

kilts_knave said:

Faith, Hope and Charity are the theological virtues.

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yes, I was mistaken, thanks!

I think there are different names for the 7 of them. But it seems they are always groups four pagan/cardinal and three ecclesiastical/holy. I believe sometime as as a unit they are referred to as "theological;" yet sometime the last three are also called "theological." Very confusing.

And to make things more confusing, Prudence is one of the "pagan" or "cardinal" virtues grouped with the remaining three oftentime quoted in
1 Cor.13.

KK