Minchiate Etruria -The Empress

Sophie

I couldn't find a thread on the Empress in the Minchiate Etruria. I'm going through all the cards one day at a time (more or less).

Numbered II, which is in most traditional decks the place of the Papess, here is one powerful and domineering woman, who fully deserves her title! She holds a sceptre and a large blue globe with bronze (or leather?) hoop. She faces left, the same way as The Emperor - so she is seen fully in profile. There is no eagle - but instead she has her hand on the head of an animal that looks like a griffon - or maybe a poorly drawn dog ;). She is sitting on a ceremonial-looking stool or ottoman. Her crown is plain and she wears a dark red/rose drape. Not an imperial colour, unless it is discoloured - but a regal one. She is bare-footed, with straps or ribbons around her feet. She also wears an unusual garment for a woman - at least on show! - a pair of what looks like leggings or long johns. Very fashionable ;)

It is a strange card, because her expression reminds me very much of the Papess, lost in thought - or perhaps gazing at something intently. She looks intelligent, but as though she would take her time to decide.

The association of II and Empress is a new one to me, as I said. The duality of the two, which I often associate with gestation, would an Empress who is waiting, who has not yet given birth - yet this lady looks as those she has borne half a dozen children. So I have to revise my mental associations. She comes just before the Emperor - presumably his consort. The II probably means that she is below him - but also, it makes me think of the power behind the throne - the one who takes the true decisions, though the full glory of them goes to III-The Emperor.

Or she could be an Empress in opposition.

Scratching my head for more. I'm not sure how I would interpret her in a reading...
 

Dwaas

Thank you Helvetica for your thoughts on this card. The funny thing is that I don't see this card as the Empress. There is no Empress in this deck. Sure, all qualities of the empress could be applied but this card is imo even stronger. The Grand Duke or Gran Duchessa looks to me like a women dressed as a man or a man dressed as a woman.
Helvetica said:
She also wears an unusual garment for a woman - at least on show! - a pair of what looks like leggings or long johns. Very fashionable ;)
:) Perhaps the woman/man question is part of the deeper meaning of the card that nothing is always what it seems. There is some genderissue here which makes this old card extremely interesting for nowadays questions. But let's not drift away. Yep Empress qualities indeed. But somehow with much more emphasizing on the empress/regal thing then on the mother or nature thing. This is imo someone regal, living in the city, dealing with practical or political matters and used to diplomatic talk.
Helvetica said:
yet this lady looks as those she has borne half a dozen children.
Really? I have to have a closer look at this card then... ;)


Helvetica said:
There is no eagle - but instead she has her hand on the head of an animal that looks like a griffon - or maybe a poorly drawn dog ;).

I was wondering myself and I remember asking this before, so I found another thread on this card where MystiqueMoonlight gives an interesting answer:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=56622

MystiqueMoonlight said:
This card is not the Grand Duke, but is in fact the High Priestess. I have an image and further explanation on my web site.

The animal is indeed a feline (think of the Strength card only here we see spiritual strength or self-actualisation).

Anyway, I don't think the Grand Duke is higher then the Emperors. He/she is the one who devided the country to the children, the new Emperors. Later the too many Emperors were the start of the downfall but there is nothing new :)
Blessings
 

Attachments

  • GrandDuke.jpg
    GrandDuke.jpg
    9.2 KB · Views: 205

Sophie

Dwaas - I'm confused. Why do you call the Empress the Grand Duke? :confused:

In the notes to my deck (the Minchiate Etruria) she is named as the Empress. I have no reason to doubt Giordano Berti on this - he's known as a scholar. But of course, I am going on his say-so, not mine. Do you have other sources or opinions? The card itself has no title. None of the others have either.

To me, she looks like a woman - a strong one, a big woman who has borne children and probably has huge, rather flabby breasts, strong hips, and strong arms with all the carrying. A no-nonsense woman, with more practical than intellectual intelligence - which is how I'd like to see an Empress :D. She looks formidable.

(Edited to add) Here is an interesting aside: I just showed the card to my man ("a man of immense subtlety and intelligence" - dixit himself :D). He is an unitiate to tarot. I asked him simply to describe the character on the card. This is what he answered:

"I see a lady holding what could be a globe, with her hand taming a rather ferocious-looking cat or other animal. This suggests the power of the woman and someone does not have to exercise physical strength to exercise power."

(btw - I didn't name the card - I just showed it to him)

I thought the description interesting - particularly the reference to the exercise of authority without the use of physical power, because it reminds me of the traditional interpretation for the Tarot Strength card. There is a card named as Force in my notes (VII), but it has no animal, and no notion of the taming of physical strength and the instictual by specifically womanly means. So the traditional idea borne out in the Tarot by the Strength card (where it shows a woman) looks here like it is conveyed by another card...And one that is linked to rulership and political authority. Almost as though it were saying that true political authority could not be guaranteed by physical strength, but by more subtle, persuasive means! What a revolutionary idea for 1725 - or even 2006!

This is an exciting deck - because of these almost-but-not-quite parallels. The idea of Empress/female political authority wrapped up in the idea of Strength...I find that very very interesting.

To me, if there is a gender issue in this card, it is over the exercise of authority - how it is done - the female way...
 

firecatpickles

Helvetica said:
Why do you call the Empress the Grand Duke?
[Click here] II-III-IIII is shown here is the Nuove Fiorentine. The Solleone 1984 by the same artist (I think) looks like this:

II.jpg


I refer to "her" as the Grand Duchess although in the rule book he is referred to as Il Granduca, as well.

Yes, there is no III. Empress. Helvetica, I usually use the XXX. Il Cancro card for her. (Some people use the XVIIII. Caritas as the Empress.) But when this one comes up, I see her as the HPS.

KK
 

Sophie

No III-Empress. That is why this thread is called II-Empress. That is what Giordano Berti calls her in the notes to the Minchiate Etruria.

It was presumably her name in 1725, though the rules no doubt have changed since then?

Thanks for the scan of the Solleone, KK! :)

I admit, I am falling very much in love (spiritually) with my Minchiate Etruria Empress :)
 

firecatpickles

The "Empress" Threads

Where is the Papess?
The Grand Duke (a.k.a. Il Granduchessa)
II/III - The Emperors

I am an anglophile and I love watching those mini-series on Elizabeth I. In all three (or is it four?) that I have seen, Elizabeth refers to herself; and other royalty, regardless of sex; as "Princes" or "Kings." I believe that the terms "Emperor," etal, are restricted by our modern proclivity for prooftexting.

KK
 

firecatpickles

Darn it and my William's book is packed away for my move. I know he has a few things to say about it. This is his II. Grand Duke:

2GrandDuke.jpg


It's about time we had a gay man in da houze!

KK
 

Sophie

hey KK - this is an Minchiate Etruria thread, see? ;)

And are you saying that some gay men look like women who've had lots of babies? :eek:

Grand Duchess or Empress - I think this card is about female political power, and authority exercised in the female fashion.
 

fluffy

Helvetica the name "grand Duke" for card no. II was given in 1859 see the "Grand Duke" thread, here is a small quote from it :

Ross G Caldwell said:
The name "Grand Duke", along with "Western Emperor" and "Eastern Emperor" was first given to the cards by Romain Merlin in 1859 (see _Nouvelles recherches sur l'origine des cartes à jouer_, in "Revue archéologique" XVI (1859) pp. 284-285, especially p. 285 note 2). In rule books about Minchiate written before that, the cards are simply known by their numbers (II, III, IIII) or as part of the group of "Papi" (numbers I-V). Names were never written on Minchiate cards.

The name "Grand Duke" is anachronistic, because the Minchiate series already existed by at least 1543, whereas the Republic of Florence only became the Grand Duchy of Florence in 1569 (Dummett and McLeod, "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack", p. 318). You can't have a Grand Duke before you have a Grand Duchy!

The Minchi never had names originally so it is difficult to say who card no. II represents. I often think of it as genderless and give it the qualities of a young empress/emperor who is not yet fully developed and some of the characteristics of "La Papess". It all depends really on what I feel like at the time of the reading. On a purely aesthetic level, it looks to me like a very strong woman, the kind who was brought up by her father (a King?) to hunt and horseride etc (you get very muscley calves from horseriding). She looks like a warrior to me :).

I have just looked through some notes that I made a little while ago and this is what I wrote

Fluffy said:
I think this is the Popess (she seems like a woman because it looks like exactly the same person as in V love). Hers is the most covered globe - secrets? She has her hands on a lions head - inner strength? Or is it a dog? her pet? Dogs are very faithful, guardians - she is protected, her knowledge is safe..

Anyway just a few thoughts, I am enjoying reading everyones views on the Etruria it is my fav deck!

Love Fluffy
x
 

firecatpickles

Helvetica said:
hey KK - this is an Minchiate Etruria thread, see? ;) And are you saying that some gay men look like women who've had lots of babies? :eek:
Oh, my, so it is. I got caught up in the discussion --sorry about that!

Helvetica said:
Grand Duchess or Empress - I think this card is about female political power, and authority exercised in the female fashion.
I agree, like Queen Isabella riding 9 months pregnant into battle!

For some reason, referring to her as a Grand Duchess seems to take away that image and power, as if her right to the throne was inherited and not won. If this is about political power, and what fluffy suggests historically above it is (hence the "Papi" series), then this would have the be the Empress.

Now the question remains does she have the same influence of say, the Empress, in another deck (such as an RWS style one), or is it a power closer to the HPS?

KK