Upside-down M solved [maybe]

Abrac

I's be interested in knowing too. That's one I don't have, maybe someone else will know.

I made a diagram that outlines the basics of Waite's system as described in his paper "The Tarot and the Rosy Cross" (c. 1910). The three middle paths of The High Priestess, Temperance, and The World serve as guardians or keepers of the Portals. In the two lower triads, the paths of Temperance and The World serve as He final.

Diagram
 

Abrac

I went ahead and bought a paperback from an Amazon seller. They've got some decent ones for not very much. It'll probably be good to have one on hand anyway.
 

Teheuti

This sounds a lot like a description Daath, the portal between Atziluth and Briah. I'm starting to realize Waite may have had a different system of correspondences between the minors and the Four Worlds. In The Hidden Church, he lists them,

1. Cups

2. Wands

3. Swords

4. Pentacles

From his description, Cups should definitely be 1. In my way of thinking Wands would be 3 and Swords 2, but Waite may have something else in mind. :)
Just back from Readers Studio and trying to catch up with various discussions. Waite may have had the Cup of the Stolistes in mind:
http://www.golden-dawn.com/goldendawn/UserFiles/en/image/curriculm/Image209.gif
in which the crescent part is centered on Da'ath. Note the Tattvas: crescent=water, circle=air, triangle=fire. Only the earth square is missing.
 

Abrac

Mary, that's possible. The only issue I see is in Waite's list, Wands = Fire is number 2 and Swords = Air is number 3. In the Stolistes Cup, Circle = Air is number 2 and Triangle = Fire is number 3. In The Hidden Church, Book II, Section II, "The Institution of the Hallows..." he describes them in the same order - Cup, Lance, Sword, Dish.

After thinking about this some more, I do believe when Waite said, "It is an intimation..." he was talking about Hallows. But I also think there's more to it. He wasn't talking only about the objects, but the secret tradition or doctrine behind them. For example in The Hidden Church, talking about the Hallows:

"In summary therefore: subject to characteristic variations which are particular to each text, it will be found that the several romances follow or forecast one general process, exhibiting a general secret intention, manifested though not declared, and it is for this intention that my study has to account."

The Ace of Cups is a hint of a larger secret doctrine behind the rest of the minors. Clues to that doctrine can probably be found by studying Waite's views on all the Hallows. The Cup as the Eucahrist seems pretty clear; the others I haven't delved into much at this point but I'm curious to see what I can find. :)
 

Teheuti

After thinking about this some more, I do believe when Waite said, "It is an intimation..." he was talking about Hallows. But I also think there's more to it. He wasn't talking only about the objects, but the secret tradition or doctrine behind them.
I go into this in some depth in my webinar on the Secrets of the Waite-Smith Minor Arcana. Waite expands on this some more in his revised edition _The Holy Grail_ where he talks about the parallels to the Celtic treasures, and in his chapters summing up the Secret Tradition both his Grail book and most of his other ones. His retelling of the de Boron story of Joseph of Arimathea has strong parallels to the Cup suit as I detail in my webinar (and have discussed on aeclectic in the past).

I don't have time right now to pull out all that material.
 

Abrac

In The Hidden Church, the closest thing I can find to a personal opinion of Waite's regarding the "Lesser Hallows" is:

"I wonder that it has not occurred to some of those who have preceded me in the tortuous paths and among the pitfalls of interpretation, to understand the four Hallows after another and more highly symbolical manner, as follows: (1) The Chalice is the Cup of the Sacrament; (2) The Dish is the Paten (dish that holds the Communion wafers); (3) The (broken) Sword symbolises the Body of Christ; its fracture is the bruising for our sins and the breaking for our trespasses, while at some far distance the resoldering signifies the Resurrection; (4) In another sense, the Spear is also the wounding for our iniquities, by which the life flowed from the body, and the issue of blood therefrom is the outgoing of the divine life for our salvation. Yet it is not after this manner that we shall come into the truth of the Graal, while it is likely enough that hereabouts is one of those pits which bring the unwary to destruction."

As far as in the Graal legends themselves, he says the only Hallow that has any symbolic significance is the Cup:

"As it is in the light of man's higher part that we are able to interpret the lower, as the body is explained by the soul, so even the Castle of the Graal and the great Temple, with all their allusions and all their sacred things, are resolved into the mystery of the Cup, because there is a cloud of witnesses but one true voice which is the spokesman of all. There is obviously no need in this place--as we are concerned with the greater subjects--to lay stress upon the subsidiary Hallows as if they were an integral portion of the Holy Graal regarded symbolically. They are of the accidents only, and as such they are not vital. The Lance is important to the legends, but not otherwise than from the legendary standpoint; the Sword is also important, but not in a sacramental sense; the Dish signifies nothing, or next to nothing."

Whether or not the Lance, Sword, and Dish do actually have symbolic significance, it's interesting that for Waite they don't. That's why I think if Waite did have a view on what they represent symbolically, we have it in his quote above.

In the PKT, the Ace of Cups is the only Ace about which he comments anything more than "Hand holding a Wand," etc. I believe for Waite, the suits all represent aspects of the sacrament of the Eucharist, and the Cup encapsulates all them all.
 

Teheuti

Whether or not the Lance, Sword, and Dish do actually have symbolic significance, it's interesting that for Waite they don't. That's why I think if Waite did have a view on what they represent symbolically, we have it in his quote above.
I think you'll find that his quote above has to do with the appearance of the Hallows in the stories that he has surveyed - not in the Tarot. That's why I believe he finds more significance in Masonic tradition for the Sword and the Pentacles. The Lance would become the key symbol identifying Perceval in paintings.
 

Abrac

Right, I agree. In the stories he finds no symbolic significance except for the Cup. But he offers his view on what their actual symbolic significance might be, and I think it's this view that he probably brings to the Tarot, especially given the importance he places on the Eucharist.
 

Abrac

LRichard, The Holy Kabbalah came today. That Goggle book you linked to has a Search that's very helpful. Mine has an Index but Google finds more references. The page numbers are the same as my Citadel paperback. :)

Waite analyzes quite a few different correspondences but seems to settle on:

Y = Chokmah (Father)
H = Binah (Mother)
V = Daath (Son)
H = Malkuth (Daughter) He also corresponds He final to Daath as the twin sister of Vau.

In the frontispiece of the book there's a nice illustration. I think you've posted it before though I can't remember exactly where.

Tree Diagram