Masculine tarot decks out there?

Zephyros

Good post. Unfortunately, wrong thread, or right thread in the wrong place. We aren't talking about a definition for intuition, the topic is decks that are considered masculine. The question itself does assume that traits such as masculine exist in the first place, and that they can be transposed onto Tarot decks. One can have different views about the word and concept, but perhaps that's what should be defined in the first place.

What I meant by informed intuition wasn't quite what you said, but since I said it I might as well explain myself. Whatever you call it, you can train yourself to take a card, analyze and look at every symbol theoretically (sometimes over many months), take every aspect of the card into account (for me that's the deck's esoteric structure), and really work on transforming the card into what mystics would call an "ecstatic" experience. All the symbols on a card are thoroughly processed, until they are completely understood, and the card becomes second nature. You go through a mini-process of self-initiation, "living" the card until you understand its essential energy. Longest I worked on a card in this fashion was six months, shortest was three. Add to that assorted Golden Dawn rituals pertaining to a card, some understood theoretically (or at least tried to be) and some actually carried out, and you have quite a rounded understanding of the card and its ideas.

There is a huge difference between that and what most Tarot students call the "flash of intuition," that is in most cases comparable to a simple inkblot test. I may sound like a Tarot snob, but there it is. Kabbalah is something to be felt, to be tasted, otherwise the student is wasting their time. Every idea, every symbol, must be thoroughly assimilated, understood and distilled into an abstract feeling. Once that is done, one can practice "informed intuition."

What I don't understand about your story is whether you are saying that she wasn't good because she didn't know you were gay (I'm assuming?)? There have been many threads about this issue, and that seems to be falling prey to those same gender stereotypes you eschew. A card does not necessarily mean any gender, and male Courts can, of course, point to females and vice versa. On the contrary, even when reading in LGBT-heavy environments, I would never assume anyone was anything, using gender-neutral terms like "special someone." But that's neither here nor there, and the reading you're describing does not necessarily point to any gendered relationship, but perhaps a relationship in general, so I am at a loss to understand why the reading she gave you would disqualify her (especially if, as you say, she comes from an older generation). Whatever else it may be, intuition certainly isn't all-knowing omnipotence.

As for gender stereotypes, ironically I feel they are actually quite useful sometimes, but you have to understand where I'm coming from. I study Tarot from the outside in, being interested more in structure and significance than doing readings (which I do very rarely, and only under duress). In esoteric studies there is in fact a tendency to separate male and female, active and passive energies in ways that would no doubt enrage the modern mind. They are, however, abstractions, that don't pertain to real-world gender divisions. When you're talking about symbols, they are by necessity somewhat veiled. The idea that the Empress is pregnant has nothing to do with real pregnant women, but with the idea of incubation. Plus, as a general rule, I find sexual identity far more complicated than blanket PC statements. It certainly was for me coming out.
 

Aeric

Words that come up in this thread to associate with "masculinity" are rawness, boldness, robustness. Bright primary colours, dynamic, active characters.

But look at the Goddesses & Sirens Oracle, by the same artist as Gods & Titans:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/goddesses-and-sirens-oracle/

The women are all heavily muscled, athletic, forceful, and bold, in body, emotion, and the colours they're painted with. Vesta, the goddess of the home and hearth traditionally depicted in Roman art as a robed, hooded, gentle figure, is here a scantily clad, muscled woman about to smash you across the face with her torch. She's made aggressive and eroticized, where the classical goddess was almost entirely to the contrary, to the point where her virgin priestesses were criminalized for behaving erotically. In fact, the majority of the characters are eroticized, many in "male gaze" poses glimpsing body parts considered sexual.

Is this a "feminine" deck? If the above associations are meant as a comparison, it would strongly suggest not. Granted, this comes from one particular artist's style of rendering the female form, but where do we draw the line? Does this belong in the masculine decks category despite being all-female? And if it does, what paradigms does it change for masculine decks containing men?
 

Zephyros

Well, the fact that a deck proclaims itself to "celebrate the feminine divine" doesn't mean it does it well. :) To me it looks like a pinup calender, quite objectifying. But even that could be construed as generalizing and offensive, because women like sex, too, and the idea of a gorgeous, big-breasted goddess as a symbol of strength doesn't have to be offensive to women. A feminine deck need not be prudish, nor does it have to follow the trend of showing "real" people. Humans have been portraying romanticized ideals in art since the first cave art, and it isn't necessarily a sign of the prevalence of the patriarchy. Plus, Vesta need not have been necessarily homelike, Wikipedia identifies her with fire, and suggests more going on there. Venus, too, is not the lovey-dovey goddess of modern times, but a warlike, fierce goddess, not to be trifled with (like love itself). Kali is the goddess of love and death.

For that matter, and I know we are both fans of it, I think sometimes that the Gay Tarot errs a little on the side of caution, being a little too much "we can be normal people, too!" and can be in itself a little prudish. But that's nitpicking a great deck because of my personal agenda of anti-heterocentrism that sees marriage and pairing (i.e., "being normal") as the ideal. But again, that's me. Still, great deck.

But that only goes to ask, once more, what a masculine deck actually is. When threads asked which was "the gay card" I had ready answers (none) but here I find myself at a loss, since the definition is so fuzzy. Maybe we're complicating things a bit too much. Say you had a to buy a deck for a man, other than yourself. He was just starting out with Tarot, knew nothing about it, and had general tastes not easily pegged into this or that theme (which precludes themed decks).

What would you get him?
 

x-man

Good post. Unfortunately, wrong thread, or right thread in the wrong place. We aren't talking about a definition for intuition, the topic is decks that are considered masculine. The question itself does assume that traits such as masculine exist in the first place, and that they can be transposed onto Tarot decks. One can have different views about the word and concept, but perhaps that's what should be defined in the first place.

What I meant by informed intuition wasn't quite what you said, but since I said it I might as well explain myself. Whatever you call it, you can train yourself to take a card, analyze and look at every symbol theoretically (sometimes over many months), take every aspect of the card into account (for me that's the deck's esoteric structure), and really work on transforming the card into what mystics would call an "ecstatic" experience. All the symbols on a card are thoroughly processed, until they are completely understood, and the card becomes second nature. You go through a mini-process of self-initiation, "living" the card until you understand its essential energy. Longest I worked on a card in this fashion was six months, shortest was three. Add to that assorted Golden Dawn rituals pertaining to a card, some understood theoretically (or at least tried to be) and some actually carried out, and you have quite a rounded understanding of the card and its ideas.

There is a huge difference between that and what most Tarot students call the "flash of intuition," that is in most cases comparable to a simple inkblot test. I may sound like a Tarot snob, but there it is. Kabbalah is something to be felt, to be tasted, otherwise the student is wasting their time. Every idea, every symbol, must be thoroughly assimilated, understood and distilled into an abstract feeling. Once that is done, one can practice "informed intuition."

What I don't understand about your story is whether you are saying that she wasn't good because she didn't know you were gay (I'm assuming?)? There have been many threads about this issue, and that seems to be falling prey to those same gender stereotypes you eschew. A card does not necessarily mean any gender, and male Courts can, of course, point to females and vice versa. On the contrary, even when reading in LGBT-heavy environments, I would never assume anyone was anything, using gender-neutral terms like "special someone." But that's neither here nor there, and the reading you're describing does not necessarily point to any gendered relationship, but perhaps a relationship in general, so I am at a loss to understand why the reading she gave you would disqualify her (especially if, as you say, she comes from an older generation). Whatever else it may be, intuition certainly isn't all-knowing omnipotence.

As for gender stereotypes, ironically I feel they are actually quite useful sometimes, but you have to understand where I'm coming from. I study Tarot from the outside in, being interested more in structure and significance than doing readings (which I do very rarely, and only under duress). In esoteric studies there is in fact a tendency to separate male and female, active and passive energies in ways that would no doubt enrage the modern mind. They are, however, abstractions, that don't pertain to real-world gender divisions. When you're talking about symbols, they are by necessity somewhat veiled. The idea that the Empress is pregnant has nothing to do with real pregnant women, but with the idea of incubation. Plus, as a general rule, I find sexual identity far more complicated than blanket PC statements. It certainly was for me coming out.

Closrapexa, please don't be too impatient with me for postings about material already covered in other topic sites. I am very new here, and not yet familiar with the breadth of information already available. I was not suggesting that the topic at hand was "intuition," but that common definitions are necessary.

You "assume" I am gay? Tell me, what gave me away? LOL. I was not so much criticizing the grandmother's not guessing my sexual orientation, more that she seemed to pay no attention to the traditional meaning of the cards, but painted me a pretty picture of what she thought I wanted to see. At that time, in that place, I was not surprised that the question of my orientation would not arise since she was reading for a man with tattoos, a full beard, dressed in a flannel bush shirt, denim and boots--the archetypal northern Canadian bush worker. These days people are more sophisticated, even French-Canadian grandmothers.I said my friends smiled at her meeting-that-special-girl promise. Later that evening my KnCu smiled even more broadly. He said he preferred my interpretation to hers.

I checked out your link to the discussion of intuition. You seem to say that the word means whatever you want it to. That was really where I was headed, but I was going slowly because I didn't want to step on any toes.

My main concern about masculine and feminine decks is because of the same ambiguity of definition we faced with "intuition," and something else. I will accept "masculine" and "feminine" applied to Tarot if we define them as being like grammatical gender or the yin/yang polarity in the I Ching. I do wonder about using criteria such as the pictures on the cards showing muscular women and warriors as opposed to gardens, fairies, and other kitchy elements. Do not masculine or feminine better describe interpretations rather than the decks themselves? Your final paragraph (beginning "As far as gender stereotypes...) suggests to me that we agree on this understanding of the concepts.

I worry when these terms are used more broadly and lead to seeing a man who manifests qualities like intuition, gentleness, introspection, etc., as being less than a "real" man--basically to the stereotype of gay men so common in most parts of the world. I came to Tarot through the works of Jung, Erich Neumann, Eliade, Campbell and Dumezil--not because I have an in-born sense of fashion, watch old Judy Garland movies, or secretly want to put on a dress.

Am I preaching to the choir here, or are some Tarot readers still at least unconsciously accepting inaccurate and demeaning gender stereotypes in Tarot? Frankly, I sense this in some of the postings to this topic site.

But, after saying all this, I do admit that I find all the female imagery in the RW deck a little alienating. With it I have to do what gay men have to do all the time, whether in Tarot, watching TV or movies, listening to song lyrics or reading much fiction--constantly translate from straight into gay. We pretty well take it for granted. That is why I was astonished when I ran into The Gay Tarot. To me, that deck is very "masculine," and speaks to me directly with no translation being necessary. So far I have only used the GT for personal readings, and use the RW for other people.
 

Zephyros

Closrapexa, please don't be too impatient with me for postings about material already covered in other topic sites. I am very new here, and not yet familiar with the breadth of information already available. I was not suggesting that the topic at hand was "intuition," but that common definitions are necessary.

Oh, I wasn't impatient, sorry if I sounded like that. I do tend to get my feathers ruffled when I feel my "LGBT street cred" is being doubted. :)

You "assume" I am gay? Tell me, what gave me away? LOL. I was not so much criticizing the grandmother's not guessing my sexual orientation, more that she seemed to pay no attention to the traditional meaning of the cards, but painted me a pretty picture of what she thought I wanted to see. At that time, in that place, I was not surprised that the question of my orientation would not arise since she was reading for a man with tattoos, a full beard, dressed in a flannel bush shirt, denim and boots--the archetypal northern Canadian bush worker.

You sound hot. }) But that goes to show how intuition can be colored by biases and first impressions, and its fallibility. Now, personally I think that a divination serves to try to take the process out of yourself and into the real world (in which the chance ordering of a Tarot deck is a part of). If it's all happening in your head, then you can just try to do that (and there are forms of that form of divination, I just don't see the use of that with Tarot). She saw the way you looked, and made snap judgements. Perhaps if she had used a little less intuition, she would have done things differently. Or not.

I checked out your link to the discussion of intuition. You seem to say that the word means whatever you want it to. That was really where I was headed, but I was going slowly because I didn't want to step on any toes.

Please, step freely. Toes are there to be stepped on, views to be challenged.

My main concern about masculine and feminine decks is because of the same ambiguity of definition we faced with "intuition," and something else. I will accept "masculine" and "feminine" applied to Tarot if we define them as being like grammatical gender or the yin/yang polarity in the I Ching. I do wonder about using criteria such as the pictures on the cards showing muscular women and warriors as opposed to gardens, fairies, and other kitchy elements. Do not masculine or feminine better describe interpretations rather than the decks themselves? Your final paragraph (beginning "As far as gender stereotypes...) suggests to me that we agree on this understanding of the concepts.

Probably. The use of gender roles in things like occult symbolism could very well be stated in a different fashion, like yin/yang, but when you're trying to make an emotional connection, they do serve their purpose. It isn't that all women are pregnant, but that the act of babies incubating is so universal to the human experience that it is used to show an abstract law. It really depends on your definitions.

I worry when these terms are used more broadly and lead to seeing a man who manifests qualities like intuition, gentleness, introspection, etc., as being less than a "real" man--basically to the stereotype of gay men so common in most parts of the world. I came to Tarot through the works of Jung, Erich Neumann, Eliade, Campbell and Dumezil--not because I have an in-born sense of fashion, watch old Judy Garland movies, or secretly want to put on a dress.

Dresses are actually quite breezy and comfortable, I recommend them. ;) I agree with you, but I think the problem is actually more the problem with society's attitude toward women. "Feminine" decks are far more easy to define, and not in a good way. Hearts, lots of pink, sweetness and cuteness seem to be the prevailing trends, and if I were a woman I would be insulted by this. On the other hand, masculine decks are harder to define because they would seem to be more general, for everyone, rather than a niche feminine deck. This in itself shows problematic gender issues. I'm not saying I like that situation, but it is what it is. I tend to make those same mistakes, too, although I try not to. However, like I said, the question in itself demands such generalities be made, for better or worse. Whether they should or shouldn't be made is a very important point, and I'm glad you brought it up. There still seems to be a prevailing attitude of "normal decks" and "feminine" decks, just as up to a while ago there were "normal decks" and "multicultural decks," with the default being to show only white people. White people are the default, they're normal, and if there are any others in a deck, it is to throw them a bone.

Not that there aren't exceptions. The Barbara Walker Tarot is anything but cute, and in that I think it does a great service to women. Its attitude and subject matter, on the other hand, revolve around second-wave feminism. To tell you the truth, I've got more than enough white patriarchal guilt as it is, without having a deck that beats me over the head with it even more. Still, considering that society still produces things like this, it is obvious that there is still a lot of work to do.

Am I preaching to the choir here, or are some Tarot readers still at least unconsciously accepting inaccurate and demeaning gender stereotypes in Tarot? Frankly, I sense this in some of the postings to this topic site.

Probably. People come from all different kinds of backgrounds, and the fact that they read Tarot cards need not make them enlightened in some form, or more accepting. People are people, with most raised on the lap of traditional gender roles. AT is a microcosm, with all the good and bad that implies.

But, after saying all this, I do admit that I find all the female imagery in the RW deck a little alienating. With it I have to do what gay men have to do all the time, whether in Tarot, watching TV or movies, listening to song lyrics or reading much fiction--constantly translate from straight into gay. We pretty well take it for granted. That is why I was astonished when I ran into The Gay Tarot. To me, that deck is very "masculine," and speaks to me directly with no translation being necessary. So far I have only used the GT for personal readings, and use the RW for other people.

You know, a few years ago I suggested this switch in a thread here, and very few people agreed or even understood that. It is very refreshing to read someone else talk about that automatic mental switch. But it really depends who you talk to and their politics. When I talk about gay rights to straight people, I will usually take the blanket argument that they are like anyone else. Pressed further, I will say that there is no default form of behavior, and that LGBT need not be "normal" to gain rights, they just have to exist. On the other hand, the Gay Tarot talks about the finer points of the gay experience, some of which I don't see straight people relating to, simply because they aren't there. So it ultimately depends on where one is coming from.

I think the Gay Tarot is one of the greatest decks of our times, but I could also take the opposite stance, were I that kind of person. I could say it is offensive and discriminating, trying to peg something that could not and should not be pegged, and that if there is a gay experience, it is the outcome of straight oppression. I would be correct in saying that, but I would also be very, very wrong. But it does goes to show how even within "acceptance" there are all kinds. Even when you're being completely gender neutral, some people will, quite rightly, say that a myriad of genders and sexualities ought to be celebrated, not ignored, and this includes even the most traditional of gender roles. I guess it all depends on your context.

I'll go a step further. Homophobia, contrary to other "phobias," isn't actually a clinical term, because isn't just one form of it, it doesn't mean just fear of gay people. One person could be homophobic because of social reasons, another religious reasons, another pseudo-scientific reasons ("it is against nature"). Some people aren't inherently homophobic, just ignorant or misinformed.

Anyway, this whole ramble just shows that some things defy definition, although like I said, it can be comfortable making generalities sometimes. So I don't know what a masculine deck is, or if it exists. I just fly by the seat of my pants, as I am sure everyone does.

You should try looking at the Thoth. It takes gender and culture and melds them quite well, making the non-default view the actual default. As well it should, considering who created it.
 

Le Fanu

Say you had a to buy a deck for a man, other than yourself. He was just starting out with Tarot, knew nothing about it, and had general tastes not easily pegged into this or that theme (which precludes themed decks).

What would you get him?
Tarot of the Sephiroth? Arcus Arcanum? These would be my first choices after the Thoth and RWS.

It is actually a question I find perennially fascinating, because I do believe in it and yet I do not believe in blanket gender stereotyping so I'm not sure how I reconcile this feeling. All I know is that Crystal Visions is NOT and Tarot of the Moongarden is NOT so by definition there really must be a deck that is.
 

Thoughtful

l would think a Marseille tarot would bridge the gap nicely between ultra feminine decks and the lack (possibly) of male oriented decks.
Just a thought :)
 

Placebo Scotsman

That would depend on the Marseille I would think

The artwork on the Piatnik is pretty damn rough

The elegant lines on the Madenie would have made it a hit in the macaroni clubs

And if masculinity is to be defined by hardness they don't make them any harder than the Hadar v2. That deck is so thickly laminated any one who could riffle shuffle with it would likely break your wrists if you power shook hands with them.

Can't think of a better deck for stopping live ammo though.

Or falling thru frozen lakes while ice fishing.
 

Farzon

Closrapexa, please don't be too impatient with me for postings about material already covered in other topic sites. I am very new here, and not yet familiar with the breadth of information already available. I was not suggesting that the topic at hand was "intuition," but that common definitions are necessary.

You "assume" I am gay? Tell me, what gave me away? LOL. I was not so much criticizing the grandmother's not guessing my sexual orientation, more that she seemed to pay no attention to the traditional meaning of the cards, but painted me a pretty picture of what she thought I wanted to see. At that time, in that place, I was not surprised that the question of my orientation would not arise since she was reading for a man with tattoos, a full beard, dressed in a flannel bush shirt, denim and boots--the archetypal northern Canadian bush worker. These days people are more sophisticated, even French-Canadian grandmothers.I said my friends smiled at her meeting-that-special-girl promise. Later that evening my KnCu smiled even more broadly. He said he preferred my interpretation to hers.

I checked out your link to the discussion of intuition. You seem to say that the word means whatever you want it to. That was really where I was headed, but I was going slowly because I didn't want to step on any toes.

My main concern about masculine and feminine decks is because of the same ambiguity of definition we faced with "intuition," and something else. I will accept "masculine" and "feminine" applied to Tarot if we define them as being like grammatical gender or the yin/yang polarity in the I Ching. I do wonder about using criteria such as the pictures on the cards showing muscular women and warriors as opposed to gardens, fairies, and other kitchy elements. Do not masculine or feminine better describe interpretations rather than the decks themselves? Your final paragraph (beginning "As far as gender stereotypes...) suggests to me that we agree on this understanding of the concepts.

I worry when these terms are used more broadly and lead to seeing a man who manifests qualities like intuition, gentleness, introspection, etc., as being less than a "real" man--basically to the stereotype of gay men so common in most parts of the world. I came to Tarot through the works of Jung, Erich Neumann, Eliade, Campbell and Dumezil--not because I have an in-born sense of fashion, watch old Judy Garland movies, or secretly want to put on a dress.

Am I preaching to the choir here, or are some Tarot readers still at least unconsciously accepting inaccurate and demeaning gender stereotypes in Tarot? Frankly, I sense this in some of the postings to this topic site.

But, after saying all this, I do admit that I find all the female imagery in the RW deck a little alienating. With it I have to do what gay men have to do all the time, whether in Tarot, watching TV or movies, listening to song lyrics or reading much fiction--constantly translate from straight into gay. We pretty well take it for granted. That is why I was astonished when I ran into The Gay Tarot. To me, that deck is very "masculine," and speaks to me directly with no translation being necessary. So far I have only used the GT for personal readings, and use the RW for other people.
You have some very interesting points here.

I tend to agree to Closrapexa that make and female are maybe the most powerful symbols in human culture, one of the most fundamental discriminations even before young and old. But I also share your concerns that the heavy use of these symbols will lead to the wrong conclusions - as I said in a previous post, the whole Tarot can be seen as culturally feminine.

That said, I can't get away from feeling a deck is more masculine or feminine. I use both of them btw. The ideal middle would be what I call spiritual decks. Somehow, some decks give me a spiritual feeling and have no gender bias at all. This is the case with the Hermetic Tarot, the Toth, the Mary-El, the Tyldwick, the Tarot of the Spirit and others. And it doesn't depend on their creators bring male or female.

I did not buy the Gay Tarot yet, though I thought about it often. I fear it's themes and symbols are too special to be used in general contexts. I mean, is every Tower experience like a difficult outing?

I know what you mean when you talk about that switch - but wouldn't a straight man also have to consider this, if Strength is depicted as woman? Of course there is a sense in this symbol, but I don't see how anyone might not be afflicted by it. How does a woman see herself inside the Chariot?
Speaking with Jung, wouldn't we all habe to integrate or Animus/Anima first?
 

Lee

I did not buy the Gay Tarot yet, though I thought about it often. I fear it's themes and symbols are too special to be used in general contexts. I mean, is every Tower experience like a difficult outing?
But one might also ask, "is every Tower experience like falling head-first from a lightning-struck tower?" ;)