oldest known tarot deck - can anybody tell me?

Vieville deck

hi felicityk ... I own both the Vieville deck and the Héron Conver deck. I went to the link you gave for the Tarot de Paris. The Tarot de Paris 2 of Swords shows two physical swords. However, the Vieville 2 of Swords has two _symbolic_ swords and, actually, the card's design is quite similar to the Héron Conver 2 of Swords in terms of the placement of the 4 corner flowers and the centre's floral arrangement.

It was by the moderator Laurent of the now-extinct French tarot group on yahoo (Tarot Tirages) that I had been told that the Vieville deck was of the Tarot de Paris family. However, seeing the image of the Tarot de Paris deck's 2 of Swords and comparing it with the Vieville's 2 of Swords, I'm not sure. It depends on how the Tarot de Paris family of decks is defined by tarot historians. In any event, it is my understanding that there are too many differences in terms of Major Arcana for the Vieville to be considered a member of the Tarot de Marseille family of decks. As you know, there are several different decks in the Tarot de Marseille family with design differences between them -- i.e., Conver, Noblet, Dodal, and perhaps some others.

http://www.tarotpassages.com/vieville.htm

However, having said this, I note that the article at the link that felicity gave
http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards61.htm
does support the notion that the Vieville is a design that shares some common characteristics with other tarot decks made by Parisian cardmakers. As evidenced by the differences in the 2 of Swords between the Tarot de Paris deck and the Vieville, there can be considerable differences between Parisian decks. However, as noted in my previous paragraph, there are also some major design differences between members of the TdM family of decks too.

Re: Vieville deck

Rusty Neon said:

It was by the moderator Laurent of the now-extinct French tarot group on yahoo (Tarot Tirages) that I had been told that the Vieville deck was of the Tarot de Paris family. However, seeing the image of the Tarot de Paris deck's 2 of Swords and comparing it with the Vieville's 2 of Swords, I'm not sure. It depends on how the Tarot de Paris family of decks is defined by tarot historians.

Click to expand...

I agree, there are quite a few differences between the Vievelle Tarot and the Tarot de Paris, and both differ significantly from the Marseilles pattern, though the Vievelle is closer. Tom Tadfor Little points out that both show some similarities to the Belgian Vandeborre Tarot and may have influenced that later deck:

http://www.tarothermit.com/belgian.htm

Felicity

Wow, thankyou all ! What an amazing load of information. I checked out the sites, they are fabulous. I never knew there was so much info available. It is great. Ta heaps everybody.
Dark eyes.

If the Vieville and/or Tarot de Paris deck - or even the photoreproduction of the Dodal Marseilles - are in print and available, great - I thought they had each expired their run.

With regards to the Conver Marseille, just a quick note. I have the three reproductions. The Héron and LoScarabeo 'versions' differ in minute details. For example - I'm doing this from memory as I do not have them next to me - one of the flowers on the four of Swords is coloured differently. From memory, other minor details are only that - minor details. Personally, I do think that Héron had access to a nicer or better kept version from which to make their deck than LoScarabeo. The third publication is from the Camoin house. The cards are produced on thick cardboard, uncoated, and really give a sense for what a deck may actually have been like. They are coloured following, if my memory serves me right, the BN in Paris version as published by Héron.

The only Conver photoreproduction deck currently being sold on the www.camoin.com website is the Camoin Bicentennial deck.

According to the website: "Cette édition a été réalisée en 1960 par le père de Philippe Camoin d'après les moules en bois de Nicolas Conver datant de 1760 et selon des couleurs datant des éditions de 1880. "

Translation: "This edition was produced in 1960 by the father of Philippe Camoin with the wood moulds of Nicolas Conver that date from 1760 and in accordance with colours that date from the editions of 1880."

The 1880 colours are a restricted range of colours (less colours than the 1760 edition or the Marteau) than that of the Bibliothèque nationale 1760 colours Conver specimen.

jmd ... The Camoin reproduction deck that you have: is it the Camoin Bicentennial deck currently mentioned on the website, or is it a 1760 colours deck that Camoin would have previously been sellling?

Hi jmd and Rusty neon,Diana and all you helpful friends. Thanks for the insight. You know, I never realised how much diversity there was in the older tarot cards. It has blown me away to hear of the differences in the decks. In fact, for a long time in my early tarot reading days, I was unaware of the immense range of decks also available today. It really is amazing isn't it. We really do have a fabulous choice don't we. There is no excuse for us not to get a deck that we can relate to.
Best wishes Dark Eyes.

I stand corrected... it would be the bicentennial deck with less than the 'full range of colours' of the earlier decks, but the colour range from the 1880s...

Thanks Rusty Neon.

And glad you're discovering a whole new world of important decks, Dark Eyes!

It's worth remembering that we're all forever discovering new insights and bits and pieces of information - how wonderful this Forum!

You are so right. This forum is excellent. I have learned so much, it probably seems silly, but I don't know what I would do if this forum didn't exist now. I learn something new every day, I have met some fab people and I love being able to share my knowlege and learn from fellow members of their ideas and insights. It is truly wonderful.
Warmest wishes
Dark Eyes

This is a really great thread. It might actually belong over in the history section.

Dark Eyes: To answer your original question, the oldest NEARLY complete deck is the Visconti-Sforza, as someone already mentioned. Seventy-four of 78 cards still exist, and there are several reproductions available with "replacement" cards in them. The one I like best is marketed by U.S. Games, with the cards restored by Russian artist A.A. Atanassov. His replacement cards are based on very old historical models from other Italian Renaissance decks, which lends authenticity to the product. It's available at http://www.usgamesinc.com/search/index.cfm

However, there are several problems associated with this deck. Two of the missing cards are trumps (Devil and Tower), and there is a hot, ongoing debate concerning whether those cards were ever part of the original Visconti-Sforza sequence. That question will probably never be answered. (Nobody doubts that the other two missing cards, Knight of Coins and Three of Swords were originally part of the pack.) In addition, six cards appear to have been painted by an artist other than the one who painted the rest of the deck.

This pack has an entirely different flavor than the early French cards, mainly due to its being a luxury, hand-painted item, as opposed to the decks which were printed off woodblocks and colored with stencils. Some of the trumps pictures are absolute masterpieces, particularly the Popesse and the Hermit.

The other posters here are right. The earliest complete, pristine tarot packs are versions of the Tarot de Marseilles, and Marseilles-like variants such as Jacques Vieville's.

Dave,
Hi and thanks. I will try that website you mentioned. I would like to get hold of a deck like one of the above mentioned, I have looked at some of the cards in the geocities site. They are very interesting cards, some of them quite distinct and individual, nothing like some of the modern cards we use now. They do have their own unique flavour, and one can't help feeling a sense of mistique, and an affinity with the times in which they were connected to.
I like them immensely, all of them.
Kind regards
Dark Eyes.