oldest known tarot deck - can anybody tell me?

By the way, and for what it's worth, 'Phoenix' was the name adopted by Herodotus, probably from an existing oral tradition, for the Egyptian Bennu bird, which was likely either a Heron or Crane.

If a Héron, how wonderful that it was the French publisher of that same name which resurrected the Conver Marseilles from the flames - or dust - of oblivion

With regards to heraldic emblems having alchemical reference, which to my mind the Hapsburg double-headed 'eagle' clearly does, a page on that most wonderful of alchemical sites has some interesting images and comments - well worth a view.

By the way, though I do not know of its accuracy, I have oft wondered if the reason for the name 'phoenix', as mentioned earlier, used by the Greeks, was not in reference to not only the Bennu bird of the Egyptians, but also to some depictions of the Phoenicians, with which the bird somehow became associated with in Greek thought. The king of Phoenicia was also, at some stage, referred to as the phoenix.

With regards to the Tarot, the Star card often has depicted a bird resting upon its top, reminiscent of what is said of the Bennu bird in its perch upon the top of the sacred willow (I think) tree.

Whether, of course, there is a causally indirect connection between the Tarot depiction within the Marseilles and this far more ancient depiction is a stretch - yet one which should not be rejected out of hand, as the image may have had some currency in the seafaring nations which criss-crossed the mediterranean.

To finish this post which meanders all over the place, it's worth revisiting that I-Ching quote by Huck earlier - for the Phoenix-Bennu, as mentioned above, also thought to maybe be a crane... and here we have left history, and permitted the daydreaming of associations to meander through various shades created by the brightness of the light of history.

If you want something that echoes

the unknown map of the world...and a Northern Italian sidelight
I cannot tell you the Phoenix was a known entity, but a gryphon might be. One of the early tarocchi poem authors, Boiardo, included a romance adventure of one of the knights defeating two gryphons at the entrance to a cave--and other knightly tales include a crocodile, dragons, etc. His grandfather accompanied the ruler of Ferarra to Jeruselum and given such colorful exposure to other cultures, a glimpse of the Silk Road is not far off.
And yes, Marco Polo being the fashion of Venetians, remember Ferarra and Venice did 'compete' sometimes in glorious postures and fantasy depictions. If a poet from a secondary power such as Ferarra dared to fashion a tale of a Cathay (Chinese) princess that enchanted the restless forebeares of the Este to wander the world (Orlando Innormatrato), I wouldn't put it past a humanist writer of Milan, Florence, Venice or Naples to pick up an interesting reference to a Phoenix somewhere...

Re: If you want something that echoes

Mari_Hoshizaki said:

the unknown map of the world...and a Northern Italian sidelight
I cannot tell you the Phoenix was a known entity, but a gryphon might be. ... I wouldn't put it past a humanist writer of Milan, Florence, Venice or Naples to pick up an interesting reference to a Phoenix somewhere...

Click to expand...

Interesting that Niccolo's library had two copies of "marcho polo", but Filippo's had none. It might be that he had a copy, but it simply never reached Pavia - so much stayed in Milan, and was lost in the looting after his death.

But the point is that I can't find an instance of Marco Polo mentioning any kind of Phoenix, although commentators compare the legend of the giant Roc which he recounts, to that of the Phoenix.

But they had Ovid, book 15, for the Phoenix, along with other classical writers. I've got a list, somewhere...

Then there's that pesky question of the *alchemical* significance of the bird...

Ross

phoinix - red bird

The Western Phoinix should perceived as different from the Chinese Phoenix.
The Physiologos (2.-4. century) knew the (Western) phoinix.

The Chinese "red bird" (summer) was probably related together with the "green dragon" (spring) and the "white tiger" (autumn) and the "dark warrior" (turtle; winter) to the seasons - very early., perhaps 2000 BC. It seems, that the red bird was mingled somehow with the Chinese unicorn (occasioonally it is replaced by this), chi-lin (also another unicorn than the Western unicorn), and the turtle could only get children from snakes. "Red bird" is probably associated from the sun, which is red and flies (especially in summer).
It was said, that these early mythological animals only appear at very favourable conditions (good king).

Re: phoinix - red bird

Huck said:

The Western Phoinix should perceived as different from the Chinese Phoenix.
The Physiologos (2.-4. century) knew the (Western) phoinix.

Click to expand...

I agree - which is why I sought out what *could have been* a source in Marco Polo. But I haven't read Marco Polo entirely, and from what I can gather with keywords on the internet, he doesn't mention it.

The medium, perhaps, is the Persian (Parthian or Sassanian) culture.

The Chinese "red bird" (summer) was probably related together with the "green dragon" (spring) and the "white tiger" (autumn) and the "dark warrior" (turtle; winter) to the seasons - very early., perhaps 2000 BC. It seems, that the red bird was mingled somehow with the Chinese unicorn (occasioonally it is replaced by this), chi-lin (also another unicorn than the Western unicorn), and the turtle could only get children from snakes. "Red bird" is probably associated from the sun, which is red and flies (especially in summer).
It was said, that these early mythological animals only appear at very favourable conditions (good king).

Click to expand...

The similarities are nonetheless interesting, and suggest either a common historical source (or bring up the messy idea of "collective unconscious" or archetypes) - the western Phoenix is also a prodigy, and also associated with the Sun.

Bennu>*p(h)ennu - origin of Greek word "phoinix". Also associated with Phoinix, father of the Phoenician nation. Perhaps the "wealth" - the seafarers, like the Genoese or Venetians?

I would put the associations as Phoinix-Sun-South-Arabia-Gold.

Ross

Re: Re: phoinix - red bird

Ross G Caldwell said:

I agree - which is why I sought out what *could have been* a source in Marco Polo. But I haven't read Marco Polo entirely, and from what I can gather with keywords on the internet, he doesn't mention it.

The medium, perhaps, is the Persian (Parthian or Sassanian) culture.



The similarities are nonetheless interesting, and suggest either a common historical source (or bring up the messy idea of "collective unconscious" or archetypes) - the western Phoenix is also a prodigy, and also associated with the Sun.

Bennu>*p(h)ennu - origin of Greek word "phoinix". Also associated with Phoinix, father of the Phoenician nation. Perhaps the "wealth" - the seafarers, like the Genoese or Venetians?

I would put the associations as Phoinix-Sun-South-Arabia-Gold.

Ross

Click to expand...

The name of the Phoeniceans - isn't it said somewhere, that it expressed the colour purpur-red? The colour was produced in Syria as an extract of special snails, probably a very early and famous trade object.
The phoinix (the Western animal) is described as being red and gold.

The chinese bird is described as "red". Zinnober-red. He lived in the south or was born there in the Zinnober-mountain. It often is associated sexually, it is seen as "yang". Pictorial representations clearly show not a crane, it is somehow between eagle and pheasant.

A king Phoinix was father of Europe and Kadmos. Kadmos is said to have brought the alphabet to Greece. He killed a dragon (snake ? the snake is often used as alphabet animal) of Ares. Then he took the teeth of the dragon and created fighting men. They killed each other until Kadmos told them to stop. 5 survived. It is interpreted, that these are the vocals in the Greek alphabet, which hadn't been in the Phoenicean alphabet, and the whole process describes the adaptation of the alphabet to the Greek tongue.
Then Kadmos married Harmonia, daughter of Ares and Aphrodite. And founded Theben (with an Egyptian name). Then Theben became conquered. Aphrodite and Ares was on the side of Troja, before Troja was destroyed. Then Aphrodite sent Aineas to Rome. Mars became the father of Romulus and Remus and they founded Rome.
The gods of Athen were Athena and Hephaistos. A nearly-a-son-of-them became first king of Athen. He had a dragon-tail.

Greek mythology is strongly influenced by the later dominance of Athen. Ares + Aphrodite were attributed to foes of Athen, Aphrodite originating in Cypern and Ares in Thrakia, probably early troublemakers-regions.

Probably a Phoenician alphabet entered the region around Athen and "killed" older forms of writing. As alphabets were part of the "ruling system", the original Greeks didn't like that immediately.
Later they took the alphabet and did forget.
It was so practical But they remembered the myth.

I have little time and make a quick response to a very interesting point above, which Huck mentions, that of 'Zinnober-red'.

I would assume a connection here with cinnobar, from which is usually extracted Mercury. I have been lead to believe by others who practise the more physical forms of alchemy that nowadays cinnobar in its natural form is preposterously expensive - and is usually chemically compounded from various substances, including Mercury. Given that cinnobar is used to extract Mercury from, and given that this substance is now easily obtainable, it seems somewhat strange to purchase a compound made in order to isolate the compound!

Back to the Phoenix, and I here wonder if maybe part of the historical connection is by a blending of the Egyptian Bennu bird, combined with alchemical Chinese research, reaching and blending in the Phoenician area, eventually adopting some of the concepts from each of the cultures...

Like Tarot, influences and various considerations may impact on certain developments which may take many years for a particular form to emerge, and be recognised as Tarot on the one hand, or the Phoenix on the other.

At least Italian alchemist in our period, Bernard of Trevisan, went to live near a place where he could get Cinnabar. In its natural form, I believe it is the best source for mercury. For modern alchemists, the mercury-thermometer is the best source.

Phoinix and purple, yes - I'll post the Greek dictionary entries on it. The purple could be the wealth. But I am struck still that the suit is not the Pavo, Peacock, which is Juno's normal bird. Eagle is Jupiter, Turtledove - always remarked in the medieval bestiaries as faithful and solitary (in the wilderness) - is suitable for Pallas-Athena-Minerva, and the Dove is, in classical writings, the symbol for Venus - sensual love. There is also of course the paradox that the dove is spiritual purity too - I think that was present in the classical mind as much as the neo-classical renaissance (and not missing from "courtly love" and troubadour mentality either, leading up to Dante and Petrarch, using the inspiration of physical love and desire as the springboard for the contemplation of ideal beauty - Beatrix and Laura as the *muse*).

The trouble is that Marziano doesn't say much about the birds. So we are essentially left to make guesses, if sometimes educated ones

Ross

quicksilver, chinese alchemy

I don't know too much about chemical processes, but quicksiver is used to clean gold from stone - so I've heard. Somebody reported that visiting a gold-mine in Venezuela.

Cinnobar is called a basic substance of Chinese alchemy.

The main aim of Chinese alchemy is said to have been the search for immortality. Which didn't work, as we know, as the Chinese emperors constantly died and changed.

I've my doubts, if the birds from Filippos deck point to alchemy. The birds point to German experiments with "animals as suits", the aim is probably simply "decoration".
On the other hand it seems likely, that Filippo was interested in alchemy. He was a "modern" man and alchemy was "modern" at his time. And he loved "secret things".

The basic idea of the "philosopher's stone" might have went from China to the rest of the world - the Chinese made more or less all the early inventions before the others.

China had the geographical position of living with rather much people concentrated at the fruitful yellow river. Naturally they developed earlier a greater communicative social body, in which science and understanding of natural phenomena could blossom.

Euphrat/Tigris and Nile gave similar conditions, but the Nile-region was limited by the desert. In Europe such conditions didn't exist. But the Europeans had many ways to the sea.

Re: quicksilver, chinese alchemy

Huck said:

I've my doubts, if the birds from Filippos deck point to alchemy. The birds point to German experiments with "animals as suits", the aim is probably simply "decoration".
On the other hand it seems likely, that Filippo was interested in alchemy. He was a "modern" man and alchemy was "modern" at his time. And he loved "secret things".

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about the connection of the phoenix in Filippo's deck to alchemy either. But the identity of the bird with riches has to be explained, and I'm not sure "Tyrian Purple" (or Phoenician purple) is sufficient explanation. But it might be - we have to look at the texts - particularly Ovid - more carefully. However, none of my sources, which describe the classical significance of the Phoenix, say it is a symbol of wealth or riches.

But the birds are not simply decoration. They are very meaningful. They were chosen to be specifically *symbolically* representative of specific virtues. That is, Marziano intended them to convey meaning, even instruction, which is a different thing from mere decoration, such as the leaves and flowers in the margins of manuscripts (sometimes these may have relevance to the text as well).

The reason the Eagles and Turtledoves go from low to high, is because continence increases virtue. Phoenices and Doves go from high to low, because seeking after riches and pleasure lessens us ("plures divitiarum & voluptatum secutores extiterunt deteriori loco nostrae").

I do think Filippo would have had alchemists around. Longevity and money were much on his mind. At least we know that the library at Pavia had several works from the alchemical corpus, and one manuscript in particular with 25 different treatises (still extant in the Bibliothèque Nationale).

Ross