PlatinumDove
Perhaps it is what it could mean.
4 of Pentacles: Hidden Ouroboros?
tarotbear
There are different versions of the coins under the feet, but it has to do with your personal interpretation of the card, for the most part. In the Connolly deck, the man is standing on two Pents while two more 'float' away and he is trying to keep the two on the ground from floating off while he tries to grap the airborne two before they elude his grasp.
We tend to treat this card as 'the Miser' a miserable old sonofabitch who won't part with his money. The alternative to this card is that it is not that he does not want to give it away, but THAT HE IS AFRAID OF LOSING EVERYTHING. If you saw your last hopes sliding away, wouldn't you try to hold onto them for dear life? Self-preservation is far different from being miserly.
We tend to treat this card as 'the Miser' a miserable old sonofabitch who won't part with his money. The alternative to this card is that it is not that he does not want to give it away, but THAT HE IS AFRAID OF LOSING EVERYTHING. If you saw your last hopes sliding away, wouldn't you try to hold onto them for dear life? Self-preservation is far different from being miserly.
tarotbear
PlatinumDove said:
We are off the oroborous for the moment, but I would like to give you this interpretation, whch I can never decide if it is actually from the deck 'Tarot of the Stars' or is a composite created by the site 'tarot magic.'
In Tavaglione's Card, it is called 'Benefico' or advantage. A young man sits with two feet on the pentacles, there is one on the ground out of his reach and he is reaching for it, the the fourth is loosely held on his lap. It is unclear if he is leaning up against a beautiful estate or it is in the background. The Main interpretation says: "Study the responsibilities you have inherited rather than just looking at the advantages they represent.
What you have been given is abundant; still, it is not without limits. If you are prudent and responsible the endowment will grow. However, if you are frivolous or foolish, your behavior could undermine both your inheritance and the well-being of others connected to it. Think conscientiously about all the people whom your activities impact, including those whose work and effort went into building what you have inherited and those whose welfare depends upon your right management."
psychic sue
Thank for that TB. This interpretation is along the same lines of abundance "spells" - it's what you do with your abundance that matters.
I don't like the miserly feeling many attach to this card.
I have drawn this card myself when money is tight and I am trying to hang on to each penny and budget. It's not necessarily a miserly thing, it's (as TB says) a matter of self preservation.
I also think it is true, that once you stop focusing on money, money does tend to come in. Sounds crazy, but it's true.
Sue x
I don't like the miserly feeling many attach to this card.
I have drawn this card myself when money is tight and I am trying to hang on to each penny and budget. It's not necessarily a miserly thing, it's (as TB says) a matter of self preservation.
I also think it is true, that once you stop focusing on money, money does tend to come in. Sounds crazy, but it's true.
Sue x
Fulgour
"You're Welcome!"
because I saw on the Hanson-Roberts VII Chariot it went "anti"
clockwise around... but it seemed almost impossible to find out
anything about such a well-known symbol as the Yin Yang sign.
The more I kept after patiently looking, the more things I found.
just waiting to be found... books, websites, everywhere I looked
there was little or nothing directly about the origins and meaning
of this ancient symbol. Bit by bit it came together, and I think it
may have ultimately been a "gift" from the heavens, because the
best information often turns up in the most unexpected places.
I started out with just one, simple question, about the direction,Hazel said:
because I saw on the Hanson-Roberts VII Chariot it went "anti"
clockwise around... but it seemed almost impossible to find out
anything about such a well-known symbol as the Yin Yang sign.
The more I kept after patiently looking, the more things I found.
I couldn't believe the information wasn't "somewhere" out therePlatinumDove said:
just waiting to be found... books, websites, everywhere I looked
there was little or nothing directly about the origins and meaning
of this ancient symbol. Bit by bit it came together, and I think it
may have ultimately been a "gift" from the heavens, because the
best information often turns up in the most unexpected places.
shandar
Yin/Yang in the 4Pent
Fulgour, as always, your thoughts are wonderful. And, Arcano, I think the yin/yang concept ties in well with the orobouros, because yin/yang, and the oroburos are infinite.
In Chinese philosophy, namely the I ching, or Yijing, as it is now called, yin is the (dark) feminine force, and relates to the earth. According to those who know much more than I, Yin means to resonate with, not equal to. The Yang is the heavenly (light) force, which relates to forces of nature. Earth reacts to heaven, receiving its blessings. But it is not all sexual. It is a duality, or pluralityof forces which react with each other to form outcomes.
Many scholars (Hatcher, et al) do not accept the concept of yin/yang as being attached to the ancient yijing, which is over 3k years old. The concept of yin/yang, which btw, works very well with the yijing, was introduced by the Confucians after the Yijing had been in use for some time.
Having said all of this, Fulgour, the figure in the 4 pent seems so closed off, that I have trouble understanding the yin/yang concept or the orobouros with this figure.
Naturally, as the wheel in Tarot, and fulfilled - not yet fulfilled in the Yijing, tell us, the only thing which is true in anyone's philosophy is change from one state to another. Is it that the figure will open up. When he/she does, the pentacle will turn earthwards (acceptance of heavenly gifts) by so doing, the figure will open to other vistas.
Is this what you're thinking? Very interesting conversation. Thanks
Shandar
Fulgour, as always, your thoughts are wonderful. And, Arcano, I think the yin/yang concept ties in well with the orobouros, because yin/yang, and the oroburos are infinite.
In Chinese philosophy, namely the I ching, or Yijing, as it is now called, yin is the (dark) feminine force, and relates to the earth. According to those who know much more than I, Yin means to resonate with, not equal to. The Yang is the heavenly (light) force, which relates to forces of nature. Earth reacts to heaven, receiving its blessings. But it is not all sexual. It is a duality, or pluralityof forces which react with each other to form outcomes.
Many scholars (Hatcher, et al) do not accept the concept of yin/yang as being attached to the ancient yijing, which is over 3k years old. The concept of yin/yang, which btw, works very well with the yijing, was introduced by the Confucians after the Yijing had been in use for some time.
Having said all of this, Fulgour, the figure in the 4 pent seems so closed off, that I have trouble understanding the yin/yang concept or the orobouros with this figure.
Naturally, as the wheel in Tarot, and fulfilled - not yet fulfilled in the Yijing, tell us, the only thing which is true in anyone's philosophy is change from one state to another. Is it that the figure will open up. When he/she does, the pentacle will turn earthwards (acceptance of heavenly gifts) by so doing, the figure will open to other vistas.
Is this what you're thinking? Very interesting conversation. Thanks
Shandar
mythos
psychic sue said:
That certainly makes sense to me. Yet, at the same time, be doesn't have his feet on the ground, he has put a boundary between himself and a true connection with the earth with his 'money'. Money may appear to protect us from, and make us feel secure about, and in control of our lives, but, all we need is a 'great depression', a tsunami, an earthquake, a war, or the death or a loved one, or a terrible illness to realise that no amount of money will ever protect us from the vicissitudes of life.
Just a thought!
Some great information here that has been added to my notebooks. Hadn't considered the arm-shape. Could he believe that by his own 'turning of the wheel' (the coin) that he somehow has control over fate? He is also in a lonely place, separated as he is from the city, symbolic of 'his world'.
Fascinating stuff, thanks all
mythos
Fulgour
Pamela Colman Smith learned her Tarot with a Marseille,shandar said:
probably while touring with the renowned Ellen Terry.
Here we see a central shield on the 4 of Deniers (pents),
and around it the 4-Square symbols of Earthly matters.
Look at shields on The Emperor, as well as The Chariot,
from a Marseille deck (links attached below for images).
The Chariot seems to be very like our 4 of Pentacles man,
with great potential but no signs of activity going on...
The Emperor sits beside his battered shield, all too aware
that his position may be perilous, desired by many others.
Where do you think the "King" on the 4 of Pentacles sees
himself as being right now: holding on to, or hoping to gain?
Marseille 4 of Pentacles
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=385253
Marseille IV The Emperor
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=368287
Marseille VII The Chariot
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=368533
shandar
Holding on to .......
In what state of time is the King of the four pentacles? There are as many levels of reality and understanding as your brain is capable of containing. At what level can we contain this King?
Even though we may wish instant gratification, without a deep experience of the cards, our personal inclinations can make us experience their revelatory messages. This King can be an iconograph, or archetype, of that which pervades our self conceptions.
Pray God I am not this, but this King reminds me of Shakespeare's Richard III; a grasping, hideous sociopath.
"But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
...... And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
... I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
I know this is a dramatic interpretation of the card, but he is tied to himself. He gathers those material things around himself which he loves most, not caring for the outer world of thoughts, emotions, or ideals. He has no delight in passing away the time in the joys of discourse or companionship. He is the consumate anarchist (with apologies to Iago, et al).
Le Emperor appears to be an initiate, compared to this King. His essential evil in pulling all that he cares for inward, within his grasp is disturbing.
This, of course, is my interpretation. does this iconographic symbol contain only one level? Naturally not. Our narcissist is multi-faceted. Remember, there are as many levels of understanding as your brain is capable of containing. Look into all of those cranial nooks and cranies to pull the threads of the 4/pentacles into your purview.
As with everything in the universe, this figure is not held in stasis; afterall, he must react to the currents sweeping around him.
It is my natural inclination to believe that we want to improve, that we are not contained in a raindrop, like Richard in the Play. Perhaps life is only a play, not a dream, if so, I want to contribute to the editing.
And so, our King becomes me, because that is the only corridor he can take within my head. Because he is the consummate pragmatist, our King comes to understand at last that he must let go of his inclinations, his machanications are as nothing when compared to the truth of the universe. In this saga the King lets go because he must. He can't obtain his objectives uness he does, nor can he become him/her self unless he/she goes forward.
Naturally this is spun of whole cloth. the King/4pent, is an individual who lasts for centuries. He offers us a looking glass through which we learn who we are and what we must do. At the end, we must be capable of being honest about who we are and what we want. I find that I wish to move forward, albeit with a swords mentality in a wands philosophy, with a cups intuition. I think it is interesting that I do not embrace a pentacles view. oooh.
Shandar
In what state of time is the King of the four pentacles? There are as many levels of reality and understanding as your brain is capable of containing. At what level can we contain this King?
Even though we may wish instant gratification, without a deep experience of the cards, our personal inclinations can make us experience their revelatory messages. This King can be an iconograph, or archetype, of that which pervades our self conceptions.
Pray God I am not this, but this King reminds me of Shakespeare's Richard III; a grasping, hideous sociopath.
"But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
...... And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
... I am determined to prove a villain
And hate the idle pleasures of these days.
I know this is a dramatic interpretation of the card, but he is tied to himself. He gathers those material things around himself which he loves most, not caring for the outer world of thoughts, emotions, or ideals. He has no delight in passing away the time in the joys of discourse or companionship. He is the consumate anarchist (with apologies to Iago, et al).
Le Emperor appears to be an initiate, compared to this King. His essential evil in pulling all that he cares for inward, within his grasp is disturbing.
This, of course, is my interpretation. does this iconographic symbol contain only one level? Naturally not. Our narcissist is multi-faceted. Remember, there are as many levels of understanding as your brain is capable of containing. Look into all of those cranial nooks and cranies to pull the threads of the 4/pentacles into your purview.
As with everything in the universe, this figure is not held in stasis; afterall, he must react to the currents sweeping around him.
It is my natural inclination to believe that we want to improve, that we are not contained in a raindrop, like Richard in the Play. Perhaps life is only a play, not a dream, if so, I want to contribute to the editing.
And so, our King becomes me, because that is the only corridor he can take within my head. Because he is the consummate pragmatist, our King comes to understand at last that he must let go of his inclinations, his machanications are as nothing when compared to the truth of the universe. In this saga the King lets go because he must. He can't obtain his objectives uness he does, nor can he become him/her self unless he/she goes forward.
Naturally this is spun of whole cloth. the King/4pent, is an individual who lasts for centuries. He offers us a looking glass through which we learn who we are and what we must do. At the end, we must be capable of being honest about who we are and what we want. I find that I wish to move forward, albeit with a swords mentality in a wands philosophy, with a cups intuition. I think it is interesting that I do not embrace a pentacles view. oooh.
Shandar
Fulgour
Write Your Own Book
"Eliphas Levi" gave us the designation of Pentacles
for the suit of Deniers or Coins, signifying talisman.
Levi was not completely insane, but "Etteilla" was.
From Etteilla, Mathers and then Waite duly copied,
and so we have:
Three Parallel Traditions
http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm
The FOUR of Pentacles:
Waite: The surety of possessions, cleaving to that which one has, gift, legacy, inheritance. Additional Meanings: For a bachelor, pleasant news from a lady.
Reversed: Suspense, delay, opposition. Additional Meanings: Observation, hindrances.
Mathers: Pleasure, Gaiety, Enjoyment, Satisfaction.
Reversed: Obstacles, Hindrances.
Etteilla: Charity, Present, Gift, Generosity, Liberality, Child’s Holiday Gift, Favor, Offering, Donation, Bonus, Assistance.—The Color White, Lunar Medicine, Pierrot [Pierre au blanc].
Reversed: Enclosure, Circuit, Convolution, District, Circumference, Circle, Circulation.—Intercept, Obstruction, Blocking, Cornering, Cloister, Monastery, Convent.—Immutable, Fixed, Determined, Definitive, Extremity, Borders, Limits, Bounds, End, Barrier, Partition, Outdoor Wall, Hedge, Interior Wall.—Obstacles, Hindrances, Difficulty, Suspense, Delay, Opposition.
Copyright © 2000 James W. Revak
"Eliphas Levi" gave us the designation of Pentacles
for the suit of Deniers or Coins, signifying talisman.
Levi was not completely insane, but "Etteilla" was.
From Etteilla, Mathers and then Waite duly copied,
and so we have:
Three Parallel Traditions
http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm
The FOUR of Pentacles:
Waite: The surety of possessions, cleaving to that which one has, gift, legacy, inheritance. Additional Meanings: For a bachelor, pleasant news from a lady.
Reversed: Suspense, delay, opposition. Additional Meanings: Observation, hindrances.
Mathers: Pleasure, Gaiety, Enjoyment, Satisfaction.
Reversed: Obstacles, Hindrances.
Etteilla: Charity, Present, Gift, Generosity, Liberality, Child’s Holiday Gift, Favor, Offering, Donation, Bonus, Assistance.—The Color White, Lunar Medicine, Pierrot [Pierre au blanc].
Reversed: Enclosure, Circuit, Convolution, District, Circumference, Circle, Circulation.—Intercept, Obstruction, Blocking, Cornering, Cloister, Monastery, Convent.—Immutable, Fixed, Determined, Definitive, Extremity, Borders, Limits, Bounds, End, Barrier, Partition, Outdoor Wall, Hedge, Interior Wall.—Obstacles, Hindrances, Difficulty, Suspense, Delay, Opposition.
Copyright © 2000 James W. Revak
