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The outfit of Mr. 2 of Pentacles

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Thanks Sandalwood

But you have sort of directed me back to where I have come from ... I have been through all of this.

Since it was YOU that claimed it (or saw something specific ? ) it was YOUR ideas I was after (but thanks for the references ... I have just been through all that already though .

yes, people give many general and vague reasons, I have yet to see anyone directly create a link between the images (as a progressive story) and masonry (as a progressive story),

so far it has been more like ... well, there is an eye in triangle here, so - Masonry ! or

Eg " I'm not sure what to say on the symbolism and the Templars, since it's so much." Doesnt really explain anything does it? Or that there might be a 'Freemason somewhere' that made a list. You mention the 3 and 8 ... but thats it , just declare they are there ... what is there ? (What I see might be totally different to what you see and relate to )

3 - because a stone mason is depicted ? because of 'pentagrams' ???

8 - a woodcarver ? a mentalsmith? a stonemason? penatcles? why is it masonic symbolism specific to freemasonry ???

I mean. one could say the 6 is Freemasonic because nowadays Masons do charitable work ... yes strange, but at least it links and says something ... not just a vague reference to "its there " without saying what 'IT' actually is .

Eg, one could make a link between Templars and Trump XV due to image, history, allegations, hand signs, etc etc . its all in there and can be shown and demonstrated ... even if it is wrong, it can be shown.

" Then there's the ritualistic approach (now I'm going to have to hop to the Golden Dawn, because the rituals there are (as far as I know) more known due to Crowley, but there's similarities in the rituals and Waite was into Dawn as well of course- think of 'circle magic' and the pentagram - (combining the 4 elements makes you enter 'ether', the fifth point, which may be seen as hopping through the gate on the Ace of pentacles to make the journey through the major arcana. The Magician works with that information (and the 4 elements again) to start the cycle)."

Okay ... but how doers this reveal the masonic story in the RW pentacles suit
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Or that there might be a 'Freemason somewhere' that made a list.
There is at least one Freemason who looked into it and made a list--conclusion of the one I saw, as far as I recall, was that there is not really that much in the way of overt masonry symbolism (beyond the J&B pillars of the Priestess). I'll track it down if I can and post a link (if I'm allowed).
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Thanks !

(By the way , I am NOT UNFAMILIAR with Masonic rites & rituals, 'knowledge lectures', tracing boards, 'papers' and articles etc. and spurious and clandestine lodges. ... Its not my lack of knowing what Masonry is about ... its my lack of seeing that clearly displayed in cards ... as people seem to be suggesting it is there .
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Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
There is at least one Freemason who looked into it--conclusion of the one I saw, as far as I recall, was that there is not really that much in the way of masonry symbolism (beyond the J&B pillars of the Priestess). I'll track it down if I can and post a link (if I'm allowed).
There is this for example, maybe there are others that may have drawn a more positive conclusion (than the author's summation):

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...ana_tarot.html

(I think that is the one I recall, but so long ago I can't be sure, but if not something similar. No idea if that is the one Sandalwood is referring too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
(By the way , I am NOT UNFAMILIAR with Masonic rites & rituals, 'knowledge lectures', tracing boards, 'papers' and articles etc. and spurious and clandestine lodges. ... Its not my lack of knowing what Masonry is about ... its my lack of seeing that clearly displayed in cards ... as people seem to be suggesting it is there .
I am not a Freemason--but I am familiar with all such stuff that has been published and in conversation with some that are or have been members (of both those recognised as legitimate and others spurious), none of whom obviously have taken any vows of secrecy to seriously: indeed, a few have even allowed me to handle their tools
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A source from a recognised non-spurious Mason , well done.

If folks find it too wordy ... go to the summary at the end ... and that last table of comparative symbols.

Even the 'coin on table' which he gives a 'yes' to is a stretch IMO ... the C. has no coin ... he is given one and carries it with him, later he gives it up , at one stage it may be 'on the table'

but it is not 'just a coin' and the table isnt really a 'table' (in the rite) .

But it is rather wonderful that the only card that seems agreed by all to show Masonic significance (in an 'old boys club' is the essence of female spirituality and initiation .

http://www.womanthouartgod.com/wmbondfreemasonry.php

(Aside from all that, the Masonic Temple {now closed} near Balmain had a shrine built into the stonework above the door with an Isis/Mary set into it. )
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To determine if Waite included references to Freemasonry in the deck it is best to go to Waite himself since he dealt with far more subtle aspects of Masonry than are found in typical references to the Craft. A lot of relevant material can be found in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and in The Secret Tradition in Freemasonry. Also, Waite was far more concerned with how multiple "secret traditions" were, in his opinion, portraying a single mystery, a mystical vision, and so it is to this single mystery that the Tarot symbolism alludes.

For instance, "The mystery of secret teaching hinted almost everywhere in the Graal legends, the mystery which has for centuries shrouded the inner teaching imparted by the Templar initiation, and the mystery which involves the origin of the great legend of Masonry are not in reality three mysteries, but rather a single mystery exhibited through various vehicles." The Tarot was for him a fourth vehicle.
The quote is from "The Legend of the Holy Graal: In Its Connection with Templars and Freemasons" in Horlick's Magazine, vol. 1, p. 25 (1904).
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Hi,

Thanks for all that excellent information everyone
@ravenest - it's different orders and mixes in the cards. For me it all comes down to the same. Instead of looking up the symbolism read the myths and stories on the grail legends for example if you want to see if you can link the information. It's not one legend, one orders secret or one story, but there is symbolism referring to it. In the end you can read up as much about it (suit of swords), but to me it comes down to feeling it (cups) or experiencing ( pentacles) it by taking ( wands) the actual steps. For me tarot is a tool, not the total embodiment that will open up the final gate. It would be cool to say "oh look, that's actually portraying battle x that took place in x which hint to ritual x, which is part of the 2nd degree etc. but to me it's not really what it's about. This is my personal opinion on it.
A lot found on the internet in regards to the orders is also untrue.
In my opinion in the pentacles they are refining their building and self-work. If you don't see the symbolism, then you don't, and then that's your conclusion all well with me

I like what Teheuti says about studying Waite's writings since he is the first source of the deck.

I do still wonder what in earth is up with that strange 2 pents costume though...
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I think the hat is seen by most as a jester's or dunce's cap. However, that's just a guess. Except for a few cards, I think most of the image details came from Pixie Smith and don't have any esoteric symbolism except what each individual gives them. You could look through her art to see if that style hat appears anywhere else. http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/...-colman-smith/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post
To determine if Waite included references to Freemasonry in the deck it is best to go to Waite himself since he dealt with far more subtle aspects of Masonry than are found in typical references to the Craft. A lot of relevant material can be found in his Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and in The Secret Tradition in Freemasonry. Also, Waite was far more concerned with how multiple "secret traditions" were, in his opinion, portraying a single mystery, a mystical vision, and so it is to this single mystery that the Tarot symbolism alludes.

For instance, "The mystery of secret teaching hinted almost everywhere in the Graal legends, the mystery which has for centuries shrouded the inner teaching imparted by the Templar initiation, and the mystery which involves the origin of the great legend of Masonry are not in reality three mysteries, but rather a single mystery exhibited through various vehicles." The Tarot was for him a fourth vehicle.
The quote is from "The Legend of the Holy Graal: In Its Connection with Templars and Freemasons" in Horlick's Magazine, vol. 1, p. 25 (1904).
Well, one can say that about all mysteries ! I dont see it in any way as supporting an analogy between a journey through Masonry and a journey through the RW disc suit ... which seems to have now become 'references to Freemasonry in the deck.' Yes, vague references are there ... and one direct one via symbolism in Trump II.

I even encountered Australian Aboriginal systems of initiation here that are incredibly similar to those in the western tradition ... sometimes remarkably similar ... even to what is in the Thoth deck and the OTO ! Some things connect up fantastically (and if doubted I can write a little paper on the comparisons and put it up somewhere here).

The idea that the 3 types of mysteries, that he mentions above in the quote, are specifically interwoven, just amongst themselves and to the exclusion of others, is IMO , another 'Waiteism' ... it just vaguely waffles about things he has no deeper knowledge of and is part of his own private mix ... like 'the hidden church of the holy grail' ... it doesnt exist ... (except as a metaphor or a construct in Waites mind ... oh , and a book title.)

But IMO, this is STILL a case of people making vague references to it. The quoted 'Waite speak' above , still does not show or demonstrate ANY specific associations.

But really ... I guess I should not be critical of such an academic source as; ' Horlick's Magazine, vol. 1, p. 25 (1904) ' .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandalwood View Post
Hi,

Thanks for all that excellent information everyone
@ravenest - it's different orders and mixes in the cards. For me it all comes down to the same. Instead of looking up the symbolism read the myths and stories on the grail legends for example if you want to see if you can link the information. It's not one legend, one orders secret or one story, but there is symbolism referring to it. In the end you can read up as much about it (suit of swords), but to me it comes down to feeling it (cups) or experiencing ( pentacles) it by taking ( wands) the actual steps. For me tarot is a tool, not the total embodiment that will open up the final gate. It would be cool to say "oh look, that's actually portraying battle x that took place in x which hint to ritual x, which is part of the 2nd degree etc. but to me it's not really what it's about. This is my personal opinion on it.
A lot found on the internet in regards to the orders is also untrue.
In my opinion in the pentacles they are refining their building and self-work. If you don't see the symbolism, then you don't, and then that's your conclusion all well with me

I like what Teheuti says about studying Waite's writings since he is the first source of the deck.

I do still wonder what in earth is up with that strange 2 pents costume though...
So I guess the answer is .... no. There are no direct images or symbols that demonstrate a progressive story in pentacles that is analogous to a progressive story in Freemasonry.

Like I have been saying all along
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