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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Someone mentioned somewhere else around here about the path layouts which have really got me thinking: the 3 mother letters = 3 horizontal (bridging) paths; the 7 double letters = 7 vertical paths; and the 12 simple letters = 12 diagonals. Could have something in it... would love to know if anyone has written about this...
Maybe not exactly what you are looking for But are you familiar with the Qabalistic Cube of Space?
It is constructed via ref. to S.Y. where letters are attributed direction resulting in a 3D map that has your own conciousness at the centre. The arrange ment of paths is very interesting. (All mother letters link at the centre).It also appears to be the source of traditional ritual directions and other things. See Robert Wang's "Qabalistic Tarot" where he has a map of it with tarot trumps attributed (p.134)

He also makes a good point in that this IS a map from S.Y. and the Tree isn't easily related to S.Y.
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Cube of Space


I posted it in the Star Card thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
I posted it in the Star Card thread.
Cheers! I see it.
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I was flicking thru my copy of the SY - by Kaplan I think (its in the other room, and I ain't gettin' up to get it now... LOL).

In the line by line breakdown of each chapter, there is a section where he presents some of the versions of the ToL. There is only two he gives with letter correlations on the paths, and they involve Trees that are not like the one used by the GD - they don't have the two side paths to Malkuth - only the path from Yesod.
The division of the paths goes along the lines of 3 mothers = horizontal paths, 7 doubles = vertical paths, 12 elements = diagonal paths.
Interestingly enough, the path from Malkuth - Yesod is signified by TAV, which in one correspondence is the FOOL. I thought that was interesting. I also liked this particular version of the Tree, and the placement of the letters - but I couldn't quite get the diagonal paths CHOKMAH-GEBURAH & BINAH-CHESED - I just feel it detracts from the mysteriousness of the Abyss, and where DAATH should lie looks cluttered with all those paths!!

There is also some stuff on the cube (somewhere up the back, I think...).

Is anyone else familiar with Kaplan's translation and exegesis on the SY? How does it rate with other works?

One thing I also found was significant differences between what is written in the SY concerning the associations of the 7 planets and 7 doubles, and the traditional [GD] tarot correspondences.
For example: Beth=Moon, Gimel=Mars (can't recall the rest...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
One thing I also found was significant differences between what is written in the SY concerning the associations of the 7 planets and 7 doubles, and the traditional [GD] tarot correspondences.
For example: Beth=Moon, Gimel=Mars (can't recall the rest...)
You mean this passage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supplement to Chapter 4
]He caused and produced Beth, predominant in wisdom, crowned, combined, and formed the Moon in the Universe, the first day of the week, and the right eye, of man.

Gimel, predominant in health, crowned, . combined and formed Mars in the Universe, the second day of the week, and the right ear in man.

Daleth, predominant in fertility, crowned, combined, and formed the Sun in the Universe, the third day of the week, and the right nostril in man.

Kaph, predominant in life, crowned, combined, and formed Venus in the Universe, the fourth day of the week, and the left eye of man.

Pe, predominant in power, crowned, combined, and formed Mercury in the Universe, the fifth day of the week, and the left ear in man.

Resh, predominant in peace, crowned, combined, and formed Saturn in the Universe, the sixth day of the week, and the left nostril in man.

Tau, predominant in beauty, crowned, combined and formed Jupiter in the Universe, the seventh day in the week, and the mouth of man.

By these seven letters were also made seven worlds, seven heavens, seven lands, seven seas, seven rivers, seven deserts, seven days (as before), seven weeks from Passover to Pentecost, and every seventh year a jubilee.
Yeah, its all very muddled isn't it? I've always wondered whether we're in a Gravesian moment here.
For example, the seventh day is the Sabbath, which means "rest" {ShBTh} and should be equated with Saturn;
It would make better sense if it reads -

Beth=Wisdom=Moon;
Ghimel=Health=Mercury;
Daleth=Fertility=Venus;
Kaph=Life=Sun;
Pe=Power=Mars;
Resh=Beauty=Jupiter;
Tau=Peace=Saturn.

The suggested evidence might be, 1) the new sequence follows the 'classical' and Kabbalistic order of planets and (exoteric) correspondences, except for; 2) the obvious 'mistake' of switching Saturn and Jupiter for the sixth and seventh days.

Is this a deliberate muddle to throw off the unlearned? Well, it has precedent in many ancient and modern magickal literature from Taliesin to The Book of Thoth. And, as Aeon418 often points out, the old books are not exempt from question just because they're old. I would add the redundant statement that, if this is deliberate obvuscation then what does it mean for the rest of SY?

For the rest of your post; I am not familiar with Kaplan's translation so I dare not comment.
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In most of the Eds of SY I have been looking at the attribution of Zodiac and singles is pretty straight forward (because the zodiac signs/constellations and alphabet have an order). But the doubles and planets are varied attribution (planets =wanders). One reference was an update to a more modern system, one changed to be in harmony with Ptolamaic ideas, the Ancient jews probably had other ideas as well. Planets can be clasified by rate of movement in the sky. Intensity or brightness, days of the week, and nowdays, distance from the sun (i.e. orbital order). The Wescott SY has clearly marked passages saying they are additions.

I guess its one of those things that needs a lot of study, mauscripts, various editions, learning ancient Hebrew ...... think I'll just choose the one I prefer (or various for various applications)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
Is this a deliberate muddle to throw off the unlearned? Well, it has precedent in many ancient and modern magickal literature from Taliesin to The Book of Thoth.
Yeah, but that doesn't make sense in the case of The Book of Thoth. Crowley printed the Golden Dawn attributions several times, many years before The Book of Thoth was published.

In the intervening years, as his diaries prove, he used the Star and the Emperor on an either/or basis. Only in his later work, The Book of Thoth, does he make a definite step in the direction of the Star. Maybe?

As far as the differences between the Golden Dawn and the Sepher Yetzirah go,..... well lets face it. The Golden Dawn creators took in a lot of information and knowledge from many different sources. Then they proceeded to change and alter it to suit their own needs. Essentially they created a new system from old material and then tweaked it a bit. (Butchered is a word that springs to mind ) So is it any wonder that there are a few discrepancies and differences with ancient sources?

That's why I laugh when people start screaming and shouting about Crowley's attribution of the Star = Heh = Aquarius, and then refer back to ancient sources to prove that it's wrong. If you follow those same sources then the whole Golden Dawn system is wrong as well. Crowley made a change within a new system of attributions created by the Golden Dawn.

Using the Sepher Yetzirah as proof brings both houses crashing down. The Golden Dawn made changes where they saw fit, why not Crowley. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
Yeah, but that doesn't make sense in the case of The Book of Thoth.
So, just a muddle then


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
In the intervening years, as his diaries prove, he used the Star and the Emperor on an either/or basis. Only in his later work, The Book of Thoth, does he make a definite step in the direction of the Star. Maybe?
"Either/or basis"? oh, perleez. If you two can't make your minds up how should we?

The part of SY which Ravenest refered to and I quoted is a supplement to Chapter 4 and doesn't appear in all translations. Methinks it is a later addition.
The point I was making (and going waaay off topic) was the line about Saturn corresponding to the sixth day of the week. EVERYONE in the whole wide world knows that Saturn means rest, rest means Sabbath, and Sabbath is the SEVENTH day of the Jewish calander.
I would say, on that evidence, that that passage was either written by an idiot or he had some other agenda. If he didn't know Jewish religion then he had no business writing in a Jewish mystical text; if he did know, then what else did he have in mind? I speculated on his motives if he intended to write what he did.

If the SY was all we had to support our views, and took it verbatim, then we would be sorry Occultists indeed. Fortunately we have analytical brains and neither Aleister Crowley nor The Golden Dawn are impervious to our cynicism. Some of us are not so easily impressed by prophecy and spirit guides .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
The part of SY which Ravenest refered to and I quoted is a supplement to Chapter 4 and doesn't appear in all translations. Methinks it is a later addition.
It's not a supplement in the well respected Aryeh Kaplan translation. But Kaplan does list and tabulate the results from several other versions of the S.Y. in which the letter/planet combinations differ from the above. Interestingly none of them are consistent with the Golden Dawn attributions either. Oh dear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
I would say, on that evidence, that that passage was either written by an idiot or he had some other agenda.
I think it would be more correct to say several idiots over a long period of time, all with differing agendas. I'm sure you have an explanation though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
If the SY was all we had to support our views, and took it verbatim, then we would be sorry Occultists indeed. Fortunately we have analytical brains and neither Aleister Crowley nor The Golden Dawn are impervious to our cynicism. Some of us are not so easily impressed by prophecy and spirit guides .
Oh great! So it's my word against yours now. Hee hee.
There's no shame in throwing in the towel. I won't laugh. Honest....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
There's no shame in throwing in the towel.
After you .
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