RWS Esoteric or Exoteric?

closrapexa said:

That's a pretty specific gift, seeing alchemical lions, the exact formation of the Tree of life, the Tetragrammaton, mittens, specific ritual temples, and more. Besides, is it even worth discussing whether there's Masonic symbolism in the minors if it all came from her psychic abilities? How can it be possible to take a dual stand, that the minors are rife with Masonic symbolism, yet it all came from her? If it is there, nothing Waite ever wrote about it would matter, since it isn't his symbolism.

I think there's a limit to how far the psychic argument can be taken.

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I just had a vision !

Pixie was psychic. I understand the RW tarot ... finally!

If Pixie was psychic, she picked up the mix and match from Waite's head ; Secret churches, changed GD rituals, masked vows, 'penny-dreadful romance novels' grail myths, obscure Masonry, Kabbalah, Waite's version of Christianity, and jingles for Horlick's Malted Milk, etc ... all jumbled up , picked up by Pixie and painted , without collation or forming it into a coherent system.

That's it !

By George , I have it ! ( ohhh <sigh> ... finally . )

closrapexa said:

That's a pretty specific gift, seeing alchemical lions, the exact formation of the Tree of life, the Tetragrammaton, mittens, specific ritual temples, and more. Besides, is it even worth discussing whether there's Masonic symbolism in the minors ....

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Please stop there (Ms Sharpe)

(Thats what Chief Justice Betsy used to say in our Supreme Court case when the prosecutor, tried to pull a stunt ... not that I am blaming you for that ... however, just for fun, I might continue in that vein )

" ... previously your argument was that there was an analogous set of images and symbols in both the 'story' of a progression through Freemasonry and a similar story, outlined by imaginary and symbol, in the RW minor pentacle suit. Now you appear to be trying to water that down to just a general Masonic symbolism in the deck, which the defence has already acknowledged."

< leans forward , lowers her glasses and peers down over the top of them >

closrapexa said:

That's a pretty specific gift, seeing alchemical lions, the exact formation of the Tree of life, the Tetragrammaton, mittens, specific ritual temples, and more. Besides, is it even worth discussing whether there's Masonic symbolism in the minors if it all came from her psychic abilities? How can it be possible to take a dual stand, that the minors are rife with Masonic symbolism, yet it all came from her? If it is there, nothing Waite ever wrote about it would matter, since it isn't his symbolism.

I think there's a limit to how far the psychic argument can be taken.

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I'm with you here. The symbolism, not only of the Masonic kind, is far too specific or, should I say, too reflective of Waite's other studies to be attributed solely to Pam's psychic gifts. Even though I believe that those abilities helped her to receive inspiration for the cards that sometimes exceeds Waite's instructions.

I agree with closrapexa that reading Waite after studying Crowley is a very different experience.
I can't remember who said in this thread that Waite can be as obscure as Crowley. I would say that Waite is quite a bit more obscure: with Crowley most of the times it's hard, but it's there, or at least in some other Crowley book, and often what actually lacks is my patience to deal with it, especially when Crowley is obviously being a dick. As for Waite, I agree, as I said, that there is more to him than what appears at first, but he actively disguises what he wants to say, while I get the feeling that Crowley, sometimes, is just teasing us or is trying to push our boundaries, or even just testing us.

But I do think that, in its ambiguity, the RWS is perhaps more flexible than the Thoth. The Thoth forces you to change and evolve as soon as you try to get past your commonsense or Duquette's book. With the Waite, you can spend a lifetime treating it as a scrying device without any particular philosophical depth, and without a clue as to its "secrets". It could be seen either as treating exoteric stuff esoterically (which is why it is so appealing to the random fortune-teller) or the other way around

I think Waite was intentionally vague because to his way of thinking the cards symbolize abstract concepts that are difficult to put into words. He frequently says what they aren't, but isn't as fast to say what they are.

In his Preface to the Pictorial Key he says:

"...and yet these cards belong in themselves to another region, for they contain a very high symbolism, which is interpreted according to the Laws of Grace rather than by the pretexts and intuitions of that which passes for divination."

The implication being that the symbolism contains Divine Wisdom that is revealed through prayer and contemplation rather than study.

In his second deck, the Waite Trinick, he takes an even further turn into the abstract. I believe this deck is what he wished the first one would have been but he wasn't quite there yet. His first deck shows a departure from the traditional and the second one shows his arrival at his new destination.

Eremita90 said:

But I do think that, in its ambiguity, the RWS is perhaps more flexible than the Thoth. The Thoth forces you to change and evolve as soon as you try to get past your commonsense or Duquette's book. With the Waite, you can spend a lifetime treating it as a scrying device without any particular philosophical depth, and without a clue as to its "secrets". It could be seen either as treating exoteric stuff esoterically (which is why it is so appealing to the random fortune-teller) or the other way around

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I agree. What an excellent explanation. I believe it was meant to work on different levels, just as Waite believed the Grail myths were meant to work on different levels.

I've thought that the RWS is so excellent for use with sitters ("unitiated") who can get involved in the depth of the reading and it's imagery as presented therin, without the reader (initiated, perhaps) having to explain all the esoteric clues that are being presented to their own "eyes that see".

I love the Thoth and the deep esoteric and occult significance there, but it's more for ME, the Tarot-geek who's spent a lifetime (30 years now) digging into that stuff. But a lot of that is lost on the "casual observer". Nor do I really want to explain alchemical glyphs on the card and what it might have to do with the sitter's impending job interview.

The RWS, in my opinion, was generated right at that time in history when the seams were ripping, and the secret was about to be revealed, and western/european civilization was about to cast off the chains of victorian-puritian prudery, and also the Picean age "secret" society and all of it's holy vows of silence. Information was about to go global and so was spirituality....and Waite was feeling that, and offering "what he could".

Crowley came along and really tore things wide open.

I sort of see the RWS as a "middle of the road" option or compromise between the veiled, elegant and charming TdM's (where it's all packed away and invisible) and the Lurid romanticism, even modernism of Crowley/Thoth.

I sort of see TdM as Mozart or Bach...with all it's charms and simple beauties...it's humor and classical structure.

I sort of see Crowley as Wagner....or Shoenberg even, who tore the seams of tonality apart and ushered in the modernist era.

Waite was somewhere in between...The esoteric is there if you want it, know it, can see it, but it's not "let it ALL HANG OUT" like Crowley.... after all, if you show it all, then it's not hidden in the open, is it? It's out dancing in the strip clubs!

Mallah explains it well. The Waite deck is suitable for exoteric fortune telling, but the esoteric depth is there for anyone who wishes to go there. The trumps adhere mostly to traditional TdM, with additional astrological and occult information incorporated into the images. The pips illustrate the Golden Dawn decan interpretations (among other things) but that need not be taken into consideration when doing divination.

Mallah said:

Waite was somewhere in between...The esoteric is there if you want it, know it, can see it, but it's not "let it ALL HANG OUT" like Crowley.... after all, if you show it all, then it's not hidden in the open, is it? It's out dancing in the strip clubs!

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But the real secrets can't be revealed in that way. Crowley was well aware of this. Even when he supposedly "let it all hang out" everything was still hidden in plain sight.

Aleister Crowley said:

All this secrecy is very silly. An indicible Arcanum is an arcanum that cannot be revealed. It is simply bad faith to swear a man to the most horrible penalties if he betray . . ., etc., and then take him mysteriously apart and confide the Hebrew Alphabet to his safe keeping. This is perhaps only ridiculous; but it is a wicked imposture to pretend to have received it from Rosicrucian manuscripts which are to be found in the British Museum. To obtain money on these grounds, as has been done by certain moderns, is clear (and, I trust, indictable) fraud.

The secrets of Adepts are not to be revealed to men. We only wish they were. When a man comes to me and asks for the Truth, I go away and practice teaching the Differential Calculus to a Bushman; and I answer the former only when I have succeeded with the latter. But to withhold the Alphabet of Mysticism from the learner is the device of a selfish charlatan. That which can be taught shall be taught, and that which cannot be taught may at last be learnt.

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Very true. If it were merely a matter of knowing the attributions we would all be Adepts. I am not, but in my own very small way I can say that there are things I understand about the cards only after many months of studying them.

It is damned funny, though, that the GD considered the Hebrew alphabet secret knowledge, even in the midst of the language's reawakening.