Variant approaches to the Thoth: Angeles Arrien's book

Nemia

I've read this whole long thread over the last few days. My Thoth book shelf is slowly expanding and it's interesting to see what others think.

I bought Arrien's book some years ago but never got far with it - just like Ziegler, I couldn't even put my finger on why these books didn't help me with the Thoth. It seemed redundant in a way and didn't add depth to what I saw in the card images. Henry Ho was in parts interesting, in others problematic, Banzhaf/Akron was better and Milo Duquette was even better reading, and now I finally feel ready to start reading Crowley himself.

It seems likely that without the option of an individual, intuitive and personal approach to the tarot, it wouldn't have enjoyed that popularity that it enjoys today. Had I known when I started out with tarot, how complex and demanding it is, I'd probably have been discouraged from the start.

Not everybody is ready to jump in both feet first.

When I saw that Angeles Arrien had died, I was sorry to hear it. Her approach of exoteric symbol interpretation, based on Jungian theory, is valid and doesn't compete with esoteric traditions. It's an access road to a difficult terrain. And as such, even if we find fault with details or think she might have gone into more depth with the symbols themselves, her book has its merits. It reflects the spirit of the time when it was written, she would probably have written it differently at a later stage in her life, and it belongs to the generation of books that made the tarot what it is today.

Whatever one may say against popularization and commercialization - I can't regret that a wonderful and enriching tool like tarot has become more approachable, and that a multitude of books, tools, and cards is available to us today.
 

Teheuti

Sections of Ziegler's book match my notes from Angie's class back in 1978 almost word-for-word - including stories about certain symbols that I've never seen anywhere else. I know that some people taped and transcribed Angie's classes.
 

skipbosco

Apparently one doesnt need a lot of knowledge to to write a book or run a 'tarot class' , as you appear to have found out.

These things can distract with a type of 'glamour'. As far as books and 'teachers' go (and people that give classes or seem to have some authority or 'special voice'), I would take some advise from 'The Art of War' ... which says (basically) just because someone SEEMS important or knowledgeable , that may not be so, they might have achieved what they have done by skill and worth or they may have been lucky, paid for the privilege, have good connections with friends or family or bribed their way to the top ... you will be able to tell by careful examination of the content of their work and their tactics.

Well, it was interesting because at the point I took the class I wasn't very far into the tarot thing, but still, I had already read a bunch, practiced a bunch. I really didn't take the class to "learn" anything, but more to see some other folks who were into tarot and get some pointers on reading etiquette and protocol kinda stuff, which I got. It was interesting to sit in a class about the major arcana and not really learn anything. So, in a negative example way it was good I suppose...
 

Nemia

Sections of Ziegler's book match my notes from Angie's class back in 1978 almost word-for-word - including stories about certain symbols that I've never seen anywhere else. I know that some people taped and transcribed Angie's classes.

If he did so, that's a really horrible thing to do. I wonder whether Angeles Arrien was aware of it and whether she did anything against it. It must be possible to check when his book was published, and how long it took until Arriens book was translated into German. Until then, he had the field quite for himself.

Ziegler is quite popular in Germany, or at least he was so before he was overshadowed by Banzhaf.

If he built his reputation on plagiarism - he should be called out for it. Far as I remember, he didn't mention Arrien as a teacher.
 

Teheuti

I wonder whether Angeles Arrien was aware of it and whether she did anything against it. It must be possible to check when his book was published, and how long it took until Arriens book was translated into German. Until then, he had the field quite for himself.
Yes, Angie was aware. She and I discussed it. She decided not to do anything about it, both because an international law suit would be prohibitively expensive and she saw no point in pursuing it from a spiritual perspective. Ziegler's book matches my 1977 notes from her class much more than her final book, which was heavily edited before it was finally published. (I did a little editing on it but it was hard to convey the effect of her electrifying and inspiring speech in the dry words on a page.)

My notes (1977): Queen of Wands: "Myth: Began with long black hair. Wanted to open to her intuition. She was not awake. Was in the dark. Had a panther who walked by her side. As she became enlightened, it changed to a leopard. When she was completely enlightened her hair turned bright red. She put her hand firmly on the head of the leopard to stop him from changing his spots to remind her of her past—humility."

Ziegler: "The story says that she at one time had black hair, and the panther, her companion, had black fur. The transformation she underwent left her with golden blond hair, and turned the panther into a lion. However, her knowledge of her former condition filled her with compassion for those creatures not yet freed. In order to help others, she chooses to wear reddish-brown hair, and keeps the lion in the form of a leopard, whose black spots bear witness to the darkness of the past."

Variations in my rough notes and Ziegler's text (humility versus compassion, for instance) may be due to translation (he first published his book in German) or the fact that Angie taught this course many times over the years (never with notes) and many people taped and transcribed her material. I have tried to find this "myth" described elsewhere and have not yet found it.

I could go on and on with explicit parallels on almost every page including the spreads. That said, Ziegler did an excellent job of editing and expanding on Angie's work - almost better than she did herself in her book.
 

Nemia

This is really shocking. I don't have any other tie to Ziegler than the fact that his Book Spiegel der Seele has been on my shelf for quite some time. I took it down now and looked at it - no, not a word of thank you, and the name Angeles Arrien is not mentioned. Considering the words of wisdom he spreads in his books, this seems really like an especially disgusting form of hypocrisy. What an un-ethical thing to do.

There is no way on earth that an act of simple note taking made him the owner of this material. If he wanted to edit and publish it, he might have done so with Ms. Arrien as her co-author. Or he should have done his own work, taking off from where he started in her lessons, and acknowledge his debt to her in the introduction.

If he were a student where I teach, he would have been kicked out for plagiarism.

I understand why Angeles Arrien didn't want to sue, and it would have been difficult, albeit possible, to prove where he got his material from. (I'm certain other former students of Ms. Arrien would have been able to provide more proof.) Königsfurt Urania published both his books and the Arrien handbook, and also the German Thoth. It would have been an ugly battle.

Ziegler actually based his whole career on a lie because his tarot books made his name. Who knows where he took his other stuff from. Far as I know, he was and is a household name in German tarot circles.

http://www.vigeno.de/autoren-auf-vigeno/gerd-bodhi-ziegler

What a poser. But I'm glad I know. It's probably one of the things high profile teachers and authors have to contend with.
 

ravenest

I think that is maybe more common than realised.

Once, a popular and adored New-Age author (locally) was working on a new book and wanted large sections of some of my writings - he didnt say they were going in the book he just asked me for copies of things he had read.

I said an outright NO! ( I saw how he made his first book ... it was a literal cut and paste of other peoples uncredited work. ) Then I got a big rave about how his work was good and helped people and we should all share and help each other ... and he went and told other people how selfish and un-New-Age I was :rolleyes:

I countered by asking if I would get a credit in the book or any money for my years long research and accrued knowledge and practical experience ... that got a frown from everyone ... so I asked if his name would be on the book and how much money HE planned to make out of it.

he didnt want to talk about it any more.

The Book came out (a plagiarism of other's works ... I found out later he never paid the illustrator as well ) and he became the new darling of a new set of accoladers ... and then moved to a new 'cool' area (after abandoning his wife and new baby and running off with a 17 year old girl .... after he discovered they were 'soul-mates' :rolleyes: )

I would rather NOT have any money from that type of world nor have my name associated with it.