Could readings go wrong?

trzes

I agree that the question you raised (example provided by Kitichi's post) is an interesting point, but it doesn't exclude variables such as, inexperience of the reader not knowing all possible meanings and variations, including elemental dignities and how they would apply; being distracted while shuffling, the cards trying to override the question to provide more important news on another topic, temporary 'senior moment' type blockages, and so on. Too, I have had at times been given a message by the cards that had no direct association to standard interpretation, but somehow it could make my mind jump to the meaning. Like once when someone was in danger, the seven of Pentacles appeared to be waiting ominously in the bushes, yielding a hoe. I believe there would have to be times such messages would go unnoticed, don't you think?
Without any hope to convince you of my point of view, just because you asked: I think that what you said are fine examples how an experienced reader casually stretches the meanings of the cards to make a better fit. And the question if focussing in a different way on the cards might change the outcome or not is pretty much of a belief positon too, hard to prove either way. I suggest we aggree to disagree and leave it like that :).

The example you provide by using Gregory's post to illustrate, well that to me, to paraphrase, says that the cards are more suited to spiritual growth and insight than to divination. It doesn't actually suggest that the cards are in error. It seems to imply that fault lies to some degree in the reader using them that way, for divination. That is a theory I agree with; but the risk, as applied to accuracy seems quite small. It doesn't mean that when used as a divination tool, the message of the cards is wrong, or occasionally wrong. His suggestion seems to say 'expect that if you use this information in this way, it doesn't always apply perfectly'. I agree with that perception, although am not sure that's what Gregory intended to say.
Using tarot for personal insight, reflection or spiritual growth makes it simply less likely to come across a card that doesn't fit in a too obvious way IMHO, because almost any card will add something worth considering to another aspect of your reflection. But whatever, as long as we both aggree with gregory in our own ways, that's fine by me. I don't mind too much WHY somebody would exactely accept that there is no such thing as 100% accuracy in the system being used.
 

angelika

To me, as someone fairly new to reading tarot, I was originally amazed at how accurate tarot was. And it got me thinking about why (not how) that is so. I believe it is all about energy, the flow of it, the flow can be predicted and that is what tarot taps into - this flow (and many other forms of energy reading mediums must do the same I expect).

But the future is not a certainty because there is free will (in my opinion) and so the outcome may not happen if something or somebody changes the flow of that energy.

If you do a reading on a relationship on one day, it will possibly change the next, because something may have happened to make it so. The flow of energy can be interrupted and changed. Tarot only predicts things as they stand and if there is no change.

The great thing about reading tarot is you can know your own issues better and be informed and change things as necessary if you can see where things are going which you don't want to happen, if possible

So, yes, the reading can go wrong because things change - not because the tarot was wrong AT THE TIME.
 

Grizabella

I always wonder why people don't realize that if you're using Tarot for something more than just looking at the pretty pictures, you're using it to predict the future. I have to shake my head when someone says, "Oh, I don't use Tarot for predicting the future. I just use it for guidance. I use it to see where I'm headed and then change that if I don't like it." Well, if you're not predicting the future, then what are you doing? Think about it! You're saying----"I'm predicting where I'm going to see if I like it and if not I'll change it. " I can't help but think you just don't want to admit (to yourself, especially) that you're using Tarot to divine the future and you don't want to do it for others for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. I'm not saying this to be mean. What do you think you're saying?

Personally, I don't care who chooses to insist they only use Tarot for guidance and who doesn't. And I don't care what they think about me because I do use it to predict the future. To each his own. But jeez----- :p
 

Stark Raven

I always wonder why people don't realize that if you're using Tarot for something more than just looking at the pretty pictures, you're using it to predict the future. I have to shake my head when someone says, "Oh, I don't use Tarot for predicting the future. I just use it for guidance. I use it to see where I'm headed and then change that if I don't like it." Well, if you're not predicting the future, then what are you doing? Think about it! You're saying----"I'm predicting where I'm going to see if I like it and if not I'll change it. " I can't help but think you just don't want to admit (to yourself, especially) that you're using Tarot to divine the future and you don't want to do it for others for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. I'm not saying this to be mean. What do you think you're saying?

Personally, I don't care who chooses to insist they only use Tarot for guidance and who doesn't. And I don't care what they think about me because I do use it to predict the future. To each his own. But jeez----- :p

You know, yes this is true. But then again, to agree would start a whole new train of debate... LOL!
 

Grizabella

You know, yes this is true. But then again, to agree would start a whole new train of debate... LOL!

It would be danged tough to dispute, but I've been on AT long enough to know that there are lots of people who will tackle it.

I'm still right, though, and I know it. :p :thumbsup:

But to stay on topic, Tarot probably isn't wrong but certainly the reader can be. That's why we're all hear learning together.
 

trzes

Thanks Grizabella for starting this new train of debate which I am happy to join immediately :D

I think you do have a point here, that inner guidance, meditation, spiritual growth etc. often is stressed just to avoid an answer about how serious one is about diviniation. I think that is sort of fair since this question is one of the most hotly disputed things and many people just don't want to be involved in a fight that seems pointless to them. BTW I am happy to use all these terms myself, but unlike others to cover that I actually don't believe in divination at all. Same idea: often it doesn't matter too much.

I don't agree though that is has to be devining the future or nothing. First: the equation future=divination doesn't hold for me. You can also use tarot to devine the present or even the past. I bet that questions like "am I a reincarnation of william blake" (as: what did my soul before I was born) have been asked in readings. And a weather forcast is always about the future but not suspect of being a tool of divination.

I will tackle the claim "divination in general or nothing" instead by giving an example: I used to be a notoriously indecisive person during parts of my life. The less the whole thing mattered the more difficult it was. Looking for a way out of my misery I started tossing a coin when I couldn't make up my mind. Whenever I just shrugged, thinking "ok then", it was clear that it really didn't matter. But often I was suddenly either relieved or disapointed by the coin's choice. It seems that my conscious mind used to have trouble to connect to unconscious parts of my brain wo did know what "I" wanted. Only when the coin showed up these parts sort of woke up and fired an emotional message to my consciousness. This way even a silly and not at all divinational coin could add knowledge and insights. Tarot is a much much more elaborate tool than that. Why should it not be able to provide some usefull insights about the present (mostly the unconscious) with or without divination?
 

SunChariot

I always wonder why people don't realize that if you're using Tarot for something more than just looking at the pretty pictures, you're using it to predict the future. I have to shake my head when someone says, "Oh, I don't use Tarot for predicting the future. I just use it for guidance. I use it to see where I'm headed and then change that if I don't like it." Well, if you're not predicting the future, then what are you doing? Think about it! You're saying----"I'm predicting where I'm going to see if I like it and if not I'll change it. " I can't help but think you just don't want to admit (to yourself, especially) that you're using Tarot to divine the future and you don't want to do it for others for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. I'm not saying this to be mean. What do you think you're saying?

Personally, I don't care who chooses to insist they only use Tarot for guidance and who doesn't. And I don't care what they think about me because I do use it to predict the future. To each his own. But jeez----- :p

I have to agree with you that in the examole you cited the querent is very michj looking at the future. Doing so may not be the main purpose of their reading, but they are looking at and predicting the future all the same.

I would like to add though that I don't think that all readings necssarily focis on the fuutre. We can ask things like: "What is going on inside of me that I am unaware of that is causing me to sabatage my dieting?" (the present). We can ask questions on the meaning of life (again the present). Questions like "What can you tell me about if there really is reincarnation? " Or "What can I do now to make the best use in my life of my unique gifts (and live my life in the best way)? (present)

We can ask things like: "Why did X react the way she did/ treat me the way she did 10 years ago?" (the past). Sometimes those can be healing. And even things How would my life have been different if i had married Joe instead of Sam (sortof a present mixed wtih a past). Or who was I in past lives and what was my life like? * (again the past)

I giuess I woudl say in my exoerience a lot of questions revolve around the future, but not all of them do.

And yes I also would totally agree wtih the to each his own part of course.

Babs
 

tarotbear

But trzes~!

You say you don't connect future = divination. If you ask the cards for your daily reading - that is a question about the future. Whether or not it is wrong or right is open for debate on this thread. I wholeheartedly agree with Grizz that a question that is not about the past is most certainly about the future, whether you use Tarot for prediction or for meditation. But does the meditation on a card not also affect the future? So, isn't that 'divination'?
 

trzes

But trzes~!

You say you don't connect future = divination. If you ask the cards for your daily reading - that is a question about the future. Whether or not it is wrong or right is open for debate on this thread. I wholeheartedly agree with Grizz that a question that is not about the past is most certainly about the future, whether you use Tarot for prediction or for meditation. But does the meditation on a card not also affect the future? So, isn't that 'divination'?

I find that SunChariot's examples explain quite well how a reading can be about the present. I'll give two more examples. Let's asume I was in love to a good friend, but feel bewildered, insecure, afraid of pushing things, although I guess that the feelings are mutual.

One type of question could be like: "What is it that makes me feel so insecure and afraid?" An answer might be that the beloved one has the same kind of pale blue eyes as my ex partner/lover which reminds me of a painful relationship desaster that I don't want to experience again. Learning that my fear is unrelated to the current situation I might decide to push things. Or the answer might be that the beloved one actually gave a lot of ambiguous signals and I might decide to first get to know my beloved one better and allow for some time to let things grow slowly. A third answer might be that I is myself being ambiguous, that while looking desperately for a relationship I refuse to admit to myself that the beloved one actually isn't the right one, and so I might decide to forget about the whole thing. The reading is about my current feelings, my unconscious, things I don't admit to myself, and other stuff, all in the present. But the decisions I make based on what I learned are about the future.

A second type of question in the same situation could be: "Will we end up as lovers/partners?". This is related directly to the future. No much more of an answer expected but "Yes", "No" or "Maybe".

In a way, whatever we think, partly is about the future and whatever we do affects the future. Still, the two examples illustrate different kinds of questions that are worth being distinguished IMO.

My personal definition of "devination" is quite simplistic: Cards turn up in a random order, unrelated to the question means no deviniation at work. Cards come up in a non-random order related to the question means there IS divination at work. Divination (if it works) will, with both types of question, increase the chance to get an accurate answer. But even if divination is not at work meditating on cards or having an emphatic and intuitive reader (about the sitter, not about the cards!) can provide some useful insights, at least in the first example. But a reader who can aquire all the information from the first example without divination will also have a better than random chance to give a correct answer for the second one. Conclusion: Useful readings can be about the present or the future, while in both cases divinatiom may or may not be at work.

Though, IF divination is not at work or less infallible than many people think, then I would guess that the chance to get an accurate reading is better with questions of the first type. The second type is somehow more "divination-related". If that is, what you (tarotbear and Grizabella) mean, then I agree.
 

The Divine Ms T

Yup. Interpretations can go wrong, i.e. "operator error". We are human and as a result make mistakes. Chalk it up as a lesson learned!

Btw, you have an excellent batting average so you ought to feel proud about that fact...