The Hierophant and Bacchus and the Eleusinian Mysteries?

MadeiraDarling

Apologies if this is overexcited and confusing, but so like the hierophant is Bacchus in the Flemish deck by Vandenborre which is very very interesting given that “Hierophant” was the name of the high priest of the Eleusinian Mysteries in ancient Greece. Which given the connection between both Dionysus and Demeter (both agricultural deities at the center of mystery cults, also Eleusis the city where the Eleusinian mysteries got their name sounds a bit like Dionysus’s epithet Eleutherios and like Eleutherios might be descended from the ancient Greek "Arriving at where one loves" which is a very interesting idea with the Demeter and Persophone myth. Also Demeter and Dionysus were both abducted by pirates in myth so like what's that about) and the parallels between Dionysus and Hades as Heraclitus said they were the same god.
Additionally with the pope thing like Christ looks a lot like Dionysus in a lot of depictions and is a dying and rising god like Dionysus (and in the Bacchae Dionysus is persecuted in a Christ-like manner AND pretends to be his own high priest which like... given the pope symbolism is interesting) and then there are parallels between Demeter and Persephone and Cybele and Attis sort of (especially if you include the Adgistis bit, in which Dionysus shows up to castrate Adgistis, because in that case Adgistis is sort of Attis's parent and Attis dies and is resurrected sort of like Persophone but also if Dionysus is an aspect of both Demeter and Hades it's especially connected because Adgistis, who in some versions becomes Cybele, is both the consort and the parent of Attis. Also the cult of Cybele had self castrating crossdressing priests which suggests like shifting gender was a part of going on, and like men dressing as women was part of the Dionysian rites as well and then also the castration brings up Osiris who is another dying and rising god, often compared to Christ, who lost his phallus and had to have a wooden replacement which brings to mind the wounded, probably castrated, Fisher king whose land suffers until his virility is restored by the holy grail which of course brings to mind winter lasting until Persephone is restored to Demeter)


So basically like what in the seven hells is going on with all that? And how does it affect one's reading of the hierophant?
Sources:
[Some sources (I know a lot of this is wikipedia but I checked the sources and I didn’t feel like linking to all of them individually):
http://www.earlywomenmasters.net/demeter/myth_118.html and http://mythfolklore.blogspot.com/2013/06/greek-myth-dionysus-and-pirates.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=cXL-QIIhn5gC&pg=PA239#v=onepage&q&f=false http://zero-point.tripod.com/pantheon/Hades.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Parallels_with_Christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agdistis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galli

https://www.amazon.com/God-Ecstasy-Roles-Madness-Dionysus/dp/031202214X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hierophant

https://books.google.com/books?id=oE8vW4BX9kwC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyrsus

Griffiths, J. Gwyn, ed. (1970). Plutarch’s De Iside et Osiride. University of Wales Press.
 

headincloud

Was kindda hoping you were going to tell us.
 

Thirteen

All priests are outsiders involved in mystery cults....

Well, we can presume that the Hierophant, as depicted in many decks as a Christian Bishop, would be celibate. The idea of denying sexual urges so that the spiritual can be reached (i.e. so one can give into religious ecstasy--which is what Dionysus is god over) was often behind those castrations of old. This goes along with Osiris, by the way, who when he gets his phallus replaced (by a golden one in some of the versions) he is able to impregnate Isis with Horus. He brings the divine down to Earth after he no longer has an earthly phallus. Osiris also becomes the god of afterlife, like Dionysus. And what are Priests all about if not to help us live on after we leave this life? That's what Egyptian Priests were certainly all about.

Dionysus is also the god of Epiphanies, which is what Priests and the rites of mysteries are suppose to give to followers. And Dionysus is, himself, often viewed as androgynous. Mythically this is so he can have sex with anyone, but if we go back to your castrated priests, it becomes, again, the idea of the priest as being beyond gender, beyond earthly sex. Because his job is to form a different sort of intimacy with you that delivers to you spiritual ecstasy rather than physical pleasure.

Dionysus is also the ultimate outsider and god of outsiders. Now, that may seem really odd for the Hierophant who is usually all about the conventional and status quo. However, though Priests (going with Christian here) may lead society in prayer and advise their flock to follow certain conventional rules, they are, themselves, always "outside" of society. They don't have sex, marry, have kids. They live in austerity, owning nothing. They dress in robes that distinguish them as outside of regular society. In olden days, they'd also wear horsehair shirts, fast until they saw visions, etc. Very much like the mad followers of Dionysus. They don't live "normal" lives, because being "outside" of the norm keeps them in touch with the Divine.

Finally, Priests interact in "mysteries"—they are they only ones who can hold and touch sacred objects, open sacred parts of the church, bless things, give absolution, etc. Certainly all those priests, bishops and cardinals of the Vatican are part of the biggest secret society of mysteries since the Eleusinian, a world that is as hidden to those who are not part of it as any Eleusian underground cave or temple. And, yes, like Dionysus, Priests dispense literal wine (from grails) which, from their hands, give followers a spiritual connection. So, it actually makes a kind of sense for the HP to be Dionysus. The HP is all about creating that connection between us normal folk and the divine. He does this by being outside of the earthly norm, and by being "in between himself" (literally androgynous).

What doesn't fit for me (and I'm sorry, but I can't make it fit), is that I don't see Dionysus advising any follower to maintain a status quo. ;) And I'm afraid that is the role of the Hierophant. To maintain a religious status quo; the HP would never change up the rituals to achieve a goal (the end justifying the means, as it were). Dionysus, to my mind, would :D
 

MadeiraDarling

Well, we can presume that the Hierophant, as depicted in many decks as a Christian Bishop, would be celibate. The idea of denying sexual urges so that the spiritual can be reached (i.e. so one can give into religious ecstasy--which is what Dionysus is god over) was often behind those castrations of old. This goes along with Osiris, by the way, who when he gets his phallus replaced (by a golden one in some of the versions) he is able to impregnate Isis with Horus. He brings the divine down to Earth after he no longer has an earthly phallus. Osiris also becomes the god of afterlife, like Dionysus. And what are Priests all about if not to help us live on after we leave this life? That's what Egyptian Priests were certainly all about.

Dionysus is also the god of Epiphanies, which is what Priests and the rites of mysteries are suppose to give to followers. And Dionysus is, himself, often viewed as androgynous. Mythically this is so he can have sex with anyone, but if we go back to your castrated priests, it becomes, again, the idea of the priest as being beyond gender, beyond earthly sex. Because his job is to form a different sort of intimacy with you that delivers to you spiritual ecstasy rather than physical pleasure.

Dionysus is also the ultimate outsider and god of outsiders. Now, that may seem really odd for the Hierophant who is usually all about the conventional and status quo. However, though Priests (going with Christian here) may lead society in prayer and advise their flock to follow certain conventional rules, they are, themselves, always "outside" of society. They don't have sex, marry, have kids. They live in austerity, owning nothing. They dress in robes that distinguish them as outside of regular society. In olden days, they'd also wear horsehair shirts, fast until they saw visions, etc. Very much like the mad followers of Dionysus. They don't live "normal" lives, because being "outside" of the norm keeps them in touch with the Divine.

Finally, Priests interact in "mysteries"—they are they only ones who can hold and touch sacred objects, open sacred parts of the church, bless things, give absolution, etc. Certainly all those priests, bishops and cardinals of the Vatican are part of the biggest secret society of mysteries since the Eleusinian, a world that is as hidden to those who are not part of it as any Eleusian underground cave or temple. And, yes, like Dionysus, Priests dispense literal wine (from grails) which, from their hands, give followers a spiritual connection. So, it actually makes a kind of sense for the HP to be Dionysus. The HP is all about creating that connection between us normal folk and the divine. He does this by being outside of the earthly norm, and by being "in between himself" (literally androgynous).

What doesn't fit for me (and I'm sorry, but I can't make it fit), is that I don't see Dionysus advising any follower to maintain a status quo. ;) And I'm afraid that is the role of the Hierophant. To maintain a religious status quo; the HP would never change up the rituals to achieve a goal (the end justifying the means, as it were). Dionysus, to my mind, would :D

Indeed also Dionysus is associated with liberation (which is also where we get libation) though I think that in some of these cases that the castrated priests (who were not priests of Dionysus, but Attis) were decidedly not celibate (we're also not entirely sure what they mean by castrated) and I think that the castration and "remove from earthly sex" is often rather secondary to the transcendence of gender, Dionysus who is quite androgynous isn't "neither man nor woman" so much as he is all of both, and a highly sexual being, virile and quite dangerous as well as embodying feminine qualities and virtues... and Dionysus's followers were decidedly fertile and indulgent rather than self flagellatory, they ate raw meat as opposed to the common ascetic practice of vegetarianism, they were very much of the flesh (in a time before mind/body dualism was quite as intense) Osiris was also quite a lusty fertility god, and that in a way androgyny can serve to play up rather than deny the sexuality of a deity. The other god Dionysus is often compared to is Shiva a god of destruction who is also a fertility god... which is again rather a dialectical synthesis of opposites, they're creatively destructive.

I think perhaps the hierophant can sort of contain a duality, authority and status quo on the one hand, but he can also be wild bacchanalia, an aspect of "maleness" decidedly different from the Emporer.

It is also worth noting that Dionysus in his Roman incarnation "Liber" (where we get the word liberation and libation) was the god of the Roman Plebians and had his cult banned on the suspicion that it would cause a working class revolution... so I think perhaps one can also see the hierophant as instead of an instrument of a rigid power structure as a sort of destroyer of said power structure... I think one can also read the high priestess as the sort of nocturnal, rebellious anti-authoritarian counterpart to the empress in certain readings depending on context.
 

ihcoyc

If I remember rightly, Bacchus was often substituted for the Pope in a number of Northern European tarots. In the Belgian Vanderborre Tarot, the Popess/High Priestess also becomes "Captain Fracasse", a commedia del'arte soldier. The 1JJ Swiss deck and its relatives have Jupiter for the Pope, and Juno for the Popess.
 

MadeiraDarling

If I remember rightly, Bacchus was often substituted for the Pope in a number of Northern European tarots. In the Belgian Vanderborre Tarot, the Popess/High Priestess also becomes "Captain Fracasse", a commedia del'arte soldier. The 1JJ Swiss deck and its relatives have Jupiter for the Pope, and Juno for the Popess.
Indeed I noticed that as well, the Popess/Captain Fracasse connection also interested me as I think it has connotations of "people pretending to power that does not rightfully belong to them"
 

Thirteen

Purity of tradition and status quo

Dionysus's followers were decidedly fertile and indulgent rather than self flagellatory, they ate raw meat as opposed to the common ascetic practice of vegetarianism, they were very much of the flesh (in a time before mind/body dualism was quite as intense) Osiris was also quite a lusty fertility god, and that in a way androgyny can serve to play up rather than deny the sexuality of a deity
All of which makes it hard for me to go along with casting the Hierophant as Dionysus, and I wish you luck with that ;) I've done my best, but I'm fully aware of all these contradictory elements you name make Dionysus possibly the *worst* choice for Hierophant if we're going by the traditional card meaning.
I think perhaps the hierophant can sort of contain a duality, authority and status quo on the one hand, but he can also be wild bacchanalia, an aspect of "maleness" decidedly different from the Emperor.
The "maleness" of the Hierophant as compared to the Emperor is in being a spiritual father rather than a literal father...not in how much sex he can have ;) That said, I'm in agreement that the use of Dionysus here might be a reference to substituting Bacchus for the "Pope" in early decks. Popes and priests often famously indulged in literal bacchanalias (see Medicis). This would make for a much darker Hierophant, as it becomes a commentary on the hypocrisy of institutionalized religion. And the power of pleasure to suborn institutionalized attempts at spiritual aestheticism.
so I think perhaps one can also see the hierophant as instead of an instrument of a rigid power structure as a sort of destroyer of said power structure...
Priests are *always* equalizers. A King/Emperor might be a specially chosen man, but he still must follow god's commands as all other men must, and a priest (hierophant) will forcefully remind him of this; kings/emperors have been excommunicated for their sins, and taught that they must play by the same rules as their subjects to achieve god's grace. BUT...but, that isn't the same as Dionysus as a god of anarchy and chaos leveling the playing field. If a King is failing his people, Priests (like Jesus), might clear out money changers from the temple or lead a peasants' revolts against imperial injustices. But they don't say "Drinks and orgies for all! That'll liberate us from tyranny!" :joke:

And I'm not sure that Dionysian "liberation" is so much equality and freedom as it is liberating yourself, personally, from your own prudish restrictions.

Putting it another way, Fra Girolamo Savonarola's bonfire of the vanities, destroying all pleasures and using violence to get the citizens of Florence all equally aesthetic is more in line with the Hierophant's type of equalization and liberation (and destructive inclinations for the betterment of all) than the Medicis having bacchanals in Rome. Which is all to say, the Hierophant really cannot be forced into the mold of "creative" destructive (chaos for the sake of change and regeneration). Not of we're keeping to his usual meaning. Even as a pagan priest, the wild Dionysian type doesn't quite work for that card. I'm more inclined to go with Oracles at Delphi if we're going that way.
 

wheelie

You guys are smart. (Not kidding.)

This is a great thread. Thirteen must be right, though.
 

Thirteen

I could be wrong

This is a great thread. Thirteen must be right, though.
Heh. Well, there's no right/wrong (per se) in tarot. That's why it's still around today. Meanings are extremely flexible and adaptable. Still...we wouldn't be able to have discussions of the cards if there weren't some agreed-upon ideas of what each card is about, however broad and malleable. A card creator can have their own vision of what each card means and what picture should be on it, and to heck with what anyone else says. But then, why not just create your own deck? A tarot deck, by definition, has to have not only certain cards (like the Fool or something similar in name or meaning), but also meanings for those cards that are vaguely in range of vaguely agreed on ideas (like the Fool as a kind of, well, fool). If not, then it's not really a tarot deck...is it?

Likewise, readers can also have their own idea of what each card means and to heck with what anyone else says. We all have some of this, when we say that to us, personally, this card or that has always meant "X" even if most readers don't see it that way. BUT that's not quite the same as tossing out the entire flavor of the card.

Putting it another way: I present you with a chocolate bar. We argue on its merits as a chocolate bar depending on what company made it and its ingredients. And if you hate the taste of chocolate you may say, "I don't like any such sweets," while I say, "I love anything made with chocolate." Neither one of us is right or wrong. But if someone then presented us with a candy bar that was almost all caramel with only a thin veneer of chocolate and told us that this was "a chocolate bar," we'd probably say, "No, it's a caramel bar covered in a little chocolate." That's how this designation seems to me. I don't see the card creator as completely wrong--there might be chocolate there--but it's very thin and doesn't make this candy a "true" chocolate bar. Thus, even if we can understand why Dionysus has been cast in this deck as the Hierophant, and even if we can agree that there is some merit in it, that doesn't mean, to me, that Dionysus is the Hierophant. Or should be. Not, at least, given how most of us understand the card.

But I could be wrong ;)
 

wheelie

Yes. I enjoyed the foray into myth a lot. Counter perspective is helpful.

Without chasing down all the references (chocolate bar ingredient lists) and without a long experience in tarot (mmmm tasty analogy), your explanation just seemed reasonable.

If the HP is formal, organized religion, wild drunken cannibalism doesn't seem to fit.
Could represent the Brahmin caste or the Freemasons, but maybe not as much a celebrity show like "Partying with and Munching on the Stars."