Always Wondering
As I couldn't figure out how to ask my questions in the Decan thread(without taking it off topic) I stole Scion's post to put here to start things off. I know Scion's a busy man, so if anyone feels like chiming in I would like that also.
And that was before I read this. . .
That's all.
For now.
AW
Scion said:No, Wolfy.
I hate to say it, but you're actually doing exactly what I describe in that quote: you're imagining that somehow the universe is a machine that we can "tilt" to get what we want. If we can cheat the system, it isn't a system, is it?
Magick is not about "bending" Fate. Fate is that which does not bend. Ananke! Necessity. That which must happen. Magick is about allowing Fate to work through you so that you are its conduit rather than an obstacle. As Crowley says, the True Will brooks no opposition because NO OPPOSITION is possible. If you believe Crowley, the New Aeon was and is inevitable, an expression of Ananke, and Fate is the True Will. Crowley didn't CREATE the Aeon, he announced it. Magick cannot exist in a world of Free Will because there is no POWER outside of the individual self. Again, this is a huge problem for modern Magickians; we have been raised to distrust the idea of Fate, and so we distrust the idea of external power... but EVERY system of magick on Earth is predicated on the existence of external powers, and there fore upon a worldview centered on Fate aka the Wheel of Fortune. Not surprisingly, I'd make a case that TAROT is founded on a belief in Fate, both as an allegorical gaming deck and a divinatory system. Again, it's hard to argue the opposite.
Think it through: if Magick and Free Will could coexist, what would be the source of Magick? What would literally make things happen? And before you say that "the magick is inside you," I'd say, "then it's inside everyone and therefore you can only do what everyone else is willing to LET you do." Which doesn't sound very magickal (or very free) at all, does it? How can divination occur without the Divine? How can you tell a Fortune, if there is no Fortune? Astrology is rooted in a fate-based worldview. No two ways about it. Every attempt to make it otherwise has pretty much made it NOT astrology, but rather a kind of saccharine moodring. Magick always starts with spirits. Spirits have consciousness. Consciousness is another word for Will. If we have Free Will, whose Will wins? Not any humans, certainly. Making you, if you believe in magick, a pawn in a game played by daemons.
Free Will isn't "new" any more than Fate is "old." The myth of unlimited opportunity and easy access is exactly that. And the small freedoms we feel we've gained have been matched with byzantine restrictions, controls, and invasions. For the record, the numbers on social mobility are bad. This is something that lots of Westereners don't like to look at, but the odds of escaoping from one sociasl class into another are astronomical. You are more likely to spontaneously combust thatn to make it out of the foster care system into something like a successful healthy home life. You are more likely to be hit by lightning that to climb out of dire poverty into wealth and privelege. It isn't just a matter of work, but of all the circumstances arrayed against your choices. The difference is the difference between Actions (which are an expression of Will) and activity (which arise in the absence of Will). Action and activity are not synonyms but modern society invariably mistakes one for the other, witness most modern entertainment, education, religion, politics, art, and science.
Or to put it another way, which is how I did it when I taught theology classes, I'm going to challenge that so-called Free Will you're talking about... You ready?:
Okay. Fall in love with someone right now. Go ahead. While you're sitting there. Pick someone and love them fully and passionately to the excception of all others. Enough that you'd die for them. I'm waiting. No? Then how about you make yourself a supermodel with a virtuosic singing voice. Go ahead. No? Or why don't you unsay something you said to someone a year ago? Have an earthshattering idea on the spot? Force someone to change their mind? For that matter, change your race, sex, age, abilities, the color of your eyes...? Nope. We do have a few more choices and some ACTIVITIES available to us that our ancestors did not because of access and technology, but we do NOT have ACTIONS available to us that they did not. Whether you believe in Fate or Free Will is a personal matter, but usually wehen people speak glibly about Free Will as if it's a big blank check to personal power then they haven't thought about it with any degree of gravity. Free Will isn't a panacea, anymore than belief in Fate is a prison. Even the idea of "getting used" to Free Will is so funny to me. Free will is aboutt the individual getting used, by all of creation.
Free will isn't "freedom" at all... That's what I was writing about in the above quote, if you reread it. Free will is a terrible terrible responsibility, a soul-crushing burden. It isn't a release! It's the willingness to be the cause of everything... in the world... forever! Free Will doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want" but rather that you have no framework, no guidance, no assistance, no support, no morality, no hope, no prayer, no spirit, mo power outside of your own. On the one hand, it gives you a certain amount of autonomy, much in the same way that a Nuclear explosion clears out a certain amount of real estate. Believing in Free Will means that EVERYTHING... the grass growing outside, the baby crying two streets over, the wind blowing past the Eiffel tower, is connected directly to you and the choices you make. Are you willing to be responsible for people's cancers, assaults, wars? Are you willing to be completely and utterly at fault for every mistake, flaw, or habit that gets in the way of your wishes? That's a tall order.
I'm not saying we SEE the world the way the ancients did, but rather that when people say that we DON'T see that world because we believe in Free Will, that they are using the phrase immoderately. Free Will is no small thing, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
So no. I'm plenty used to Free Will. I've thought about it a LOT. And Fate. I have a sense of how they operate as worldviews, and neither (like waves/particles in light) is a complete model... but in NO model is Free Will a free ride.
I wanted to reject this right out but the Wheel of Fortune made too much sense. I have been studying Thelema and now am trying to see what external powers Thelema are predicated on. I guess one could consider Crowley an external power or even the BOL. Am I on the right track here?but EVERY system of magick on Earth is predicated on the existence of external powers, and there fore upon a worldview centered on Fate aka the Wheel of Fortune.
I have been wondering about this myself. It's funny. I easily agree the magick isn't in me, but turn it onto the population and I could think magick is latent in everyone. I suppose I have fallen into the mindset that therefore I can only do what everyone else is willing to let me do. Though when I say it out loud it sounds so contradictary.Think it through: if Magick and Free Will could coexist, what would be the source of Magick? What would literally make things happen? And before you say that "the magick is inside you," I'd say, "then it's inside everyone and therefore you can only do what everyone else is willing to LET you do."
This is about intent?The difference is the difference between Actions (which are an expression of Will) and activity (which arise in the absence of Will). Action and activity are not synonyms but modern society invariably mistakes one for the other, witness most modern entertainment, education, religion, politics, art, and science.
This is new to me. Would you like to expand on it? Please.Free will is aboutt the individual getting used, by all of creation.
I'm with you on this. It's kind of been freaking me out lately.Free will isn't "freedom" at all... That's what I was writing about in the above quote, if you reread it. Free will is a terrible terrible responsibility, a soul-crushing burden. It isn't a release! It's the willingness to be the cause of everything... in the world... forever! Free Will doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want" but rather that you have no framework, no guidance, no assistance, no support, no morality, no hope, no prayer, no spirit, mo power outside of your own.
And that was before I read this. . .
Yikes? How/When does this happen?On the one hand, it gives you a certain amount of autonomy, much in the same way that a Nuclear explosion clears out a certain amount of real estate. Believing in Free Will means that EVERYTHING... the grass growing outside, the baby crying two streets over, the wind blowing past the Eiffel tower, is connected directly to you and the choices you make. Are you willing to be responsible for people's cancers, assaults, wars? Are you willing to be completely and utterly at fault for every mistake, flaw, or habit that gets in the way of your wishes? That's a tall order.
Now this is where you left off in the BOL study. Left me thinking. When you talk of daemons and spirits it's like there are everywhere. Not just superconscious or subconscious. And now this idea of their own consciousness. Forgive me if I am making a mess of this, I can't ever grasp a coherent question. But I do sometimes feel like a pawn in someone elses game. Could you talk more about this?Spirits have consciousness. Consciousness is another word for Will. If we have Free Will, whose Will wins? Not any humans, certainly. Making you, if you believe in magick, a pawn in a game played by daemons.
This is still sinking in. Any question yet would sound completely idiotic. But I will give it a shot. If we are going to expand in any way, do we really have a choice? I mean, isn't free will kind of like a level of maturity?I'm not saying we SEE the world the way the ancients did, but rather that when people say that we DON'T see that world because we believe in Free Will, that they are using the phrase immoderately. Free Will is no small thing, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
That's all.
For now.
AW