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Is The Planet Order Really a Mess?

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Kwaw!

That was insanely useful and you couldn't have posted it at a more opportune moment for me. Thank you very much for taking the time to collate and correlate that material.

Scion
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Aryeh Kaplan in _Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Tehory and Practice_ has a table with the correspondences from eight different versions of the SY:

To summarize the options:
Bet - Moon, Saturn
Gimel - Mars, Jupiter, Sun
Dalet - Sun, Mars, Moon
Kaf - Venus, Sun, Mars
Peh - Mercury, Venus
Resh - Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter
Tav - Jupiter, Moon, Venus

The Chaldean order in the short and long versions is a backwards one beginning with the slowest planet:
Bet - Saturn
Gimel - Jupiter
Dalet - Mars
Kaf - Sun
Peh - Venus
Resh - Mercury
Tav - Moon

I'm not familiar with a Tarot deck that uses these correspondences. Does anyone know of such a deck?

Mary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
Aryeh Kaplan in _Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Tehory and Practice_ has a table with the correspondences from eight different versions of the SY:

To summarize the options:
Bet - Moon, Saturn
Gimel - Mars, Jupiter, Sun
Dalet - Sun, Mars, Moon
Kaf - Venus, Sun, Mars
Peh - Mercury, Venus
Resh - Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter
Tav - Jupiter, Moon, Venus
The Chaldean is nonetheless the most common and variations are in the later texts.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with a Tarot deck that uses these correspondences. Does anyone know of such a deck?

Mary
I use these correspondences [chaldean] with the TdM; that is a personal application of course and not meant to imply intention of such on the part of the authors.

As far as I recollect the only tarot decks to actually use the correspondences of any version of the SY are the 20th century Spanish decks that use the correspondences of the Gra redaction. These are a late redaction, changed to better correspond with Zohar and Luria, and have become the mainstream of modern Jewish kabbalah.

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
I use these correspondences [chaldean] with the TdM
Does this result in:
Popess - Saturn,
Empress - Jupiter
Emperor - Mars
Strength - Sun
Star - Venus
Judgment - Mercury
World - Moon
??

Mary
Top   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
Does this result in:
Popess - Saturn,
Empress - Jupiter
Emperor - Mars
Strength - Sun
Star - Venus
Judgment - Mercury
World - Moon
??

Mary
I prefer alef-fool:
http://journals.aol.co.uk/kwaw93/MyDovemysimpleone/

therefore:

Bateleur - Saturn - Beit
Popesse - Jupiter - Gimel
Empress - Mars - Daleth
WoF - Sun - Kaph
Maison Dieu - Venus - Pe
Sun - Mercury - Resh
World - Moon - Tau

As I retain the TdM order the other variation is:

Teth - Leo - Justice
Lamed - Libra - Strength

Kwaw
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Kwaw -

With these correspondences - do you actually use the the astrological meanings for the planets with these cards? For instance, how do you interpret the Tower as Venus?

Mary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
Kwaw -

With these correspondences - do you actually use the the astrological meanings for the planets with these cards? For instance, how do you interpret the Tower as Venus?

Mary
Yes I do, I have gone into these in several other threads but will gladly go over them again. Only it is 2am here at the moment and I have to up for work at 6.30 so must get to bed and leave explanations until later. So that you may better follow my explanations let me just briefly say I place them on the tree so:

Bateleur - Saturn - path Kether - Tifareth
Popesse - Jupiter - path Chokmah - Chesed
Empress - Mars - path Binah - Geburah
WoF - Sun - path Tifareth - Yesod
Tower - Venus - path Chesed - Netzach
Sun - Mercury - path Geburah - Hod
World - Moon - path Yesod - Malkuth

Notice the tower is thus on the path between the sphere of Venus, Netzach, and the sphere of Jupiter , Chesed.

Kwaw
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Aghhhhhh! Thanks everyone but I am no further ahead in understanding. I don't understand why Waite or Golden Dawn has those, what seems fairly strained correspondences for the 7 double letters- Mercury, Moon, Venus- seem right and then it all goes to hell in my mind. I like brightness by my eye order
Sun, Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, Mercury...... I like the Mother letters Aleph, Mem, Shin Air-Water-Fire. So I am off to try and do my own chart of 22 Trumps, I do not think I will be using the Golden Dawn ones. I feel like giving the Sun to the Star as we only have one star- but is is the only constant I can find in that it is Aquarius. This exercise has me singing that Harry Belafonte song...

It was clear as mud but it covered the ground
And the confusion made the brain go round
I went and ask a good friend of mine
Known to the world as Albert Einstein
He said -Rosanne, from the beginning of time and creativity
There existed the force of relativity
Pi is square and a minus ten means a routine only when
The solar system in one light year
Make the Hayden planetarium disappear
So if Mt Everest doesn't move
I am positive that it will prove
That the woman piaba and the man piaba
And the Ton Ton call baka lemon grass,
The lily root, gully root, belly root uhmm,
And the famous grandy scratch scratch.


off to scratch my head! ~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
I feel like giving the Sun to the Star as we only have one star- but is is the only constant I can find in that it is Aquarius.
The kneeling figure of the Star card has clear parallels with images of Aquarius. I suppose the most straightforward allocation for the Sun card would be the Sun. In the SY the Sun is named ChMH. Mercury is called KVKB ChMH, the Sun Star, perhaps in reference to the fact that Mercury the messenger, never far from the Sun, is also called the Herald of the Sun.

Kwaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti
Kwaw -

For instance, how do you interpret the Tower as Venus?

Mary
Very, very briefly, Venus = insatiable desire of the appetitive soul [the ever consuming, all devouring mouth; Pe means 'mouth'].

Desire is insatiable because at root a manifestation of love the source of which is G-d, and partaking of the infinite thus cannot be sated by the temporal or mundane but for brief moments, desire will rise again; thus as the Buddhists have it, is the root of evil or the cause of all sorrow.

Expulsion follows the fall [XV - the devil] inaugurated by the eating of the forbidden fruit. Symbolic of consummation in all forms; but also in connection with the tree of knowledge we may note to know in a biblical sense is also figurative of conjugation or consummation, as in Adam knew Eve. What appears to me to be the expulsion is shown on at least one deck [the minchiate?].

Also re: mouth, we have to speak in tongues, multiplication of languages, the tower of babble, so in either Eve as Woman fallen or Babylon the Whore we have Venus Natura, in contrast to Mary, New Eve, Venus Urania.

Kwaw
Top   #20




 


 


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