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Is The Planet Order Really a Mess?

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Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
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Sorry kwaw, I just get an error page when I put "Beziers" in the submit box. If I put FR or France or anything, I just get an error page where I have to give my email address and a lot of other information - why? Who knows.

I'd LOVE to have this function for my place, but the information on the page is much less than helpful.
Top   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
Sorry kwaw, I just get an error page when I put "Beziers" in the submit box. If I put FR or France or anything, I just get an error page where I have to give my email address and a lot of other information - why? Who knows.

I'd LOVE to have this function for my place, but the information on the page is much less than helpful.
Strange, I just tried it with 'Beziers, FR' and it worked fine.

You Could Try Here:
http://www.astroloji.net/EN/planetaryhours.asp

I went to atlas and changed to Beziers, France; you can click the box to ‘make favoured location’ so this location will be there everytime you visit.

Planetary hours today, Bezier France: 1. 06:55 08:02 Saturn 2. 08:03 09:11 Jupiter 3. 09:12 10:19Mars 4. 10:20 11:27 Sun 5. 11:28 12:36 Venus 6. 12:37 13:44 Mercury 7. 13:45 14:53 Moon 8. 14:54 16:01 Saturn 9. 16:02 17:09 Jupiter 10. 17:10 18:18 Mars 11. 18:19 19:26 Sun 12. 19:27 20:35 Venus

13. 20:36 21:26 Mercury 14. 21:27 22:17 Moon 15. 22:18 23:09 Saturn 16. 23:10 00:00 Jupiter 17. 00:01 00:52 Mars 18. 00:53 01:43 Sun 19. 01:44 02:35 Venus 20. 02:36 03:26 Mercury 21. 03:27 04:18 Moon 22. 04:19 05:09 Saturn 23. 05:10 06:01 Jupiter 24. 06:02 06:52 Mars

Hope that works for you, best of luck.

Kwaw
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OK with all your help, I have come to this conclusion.
Once upon a time a set of papers were found which are called the Cipher Manuscripts. A guy called Wescott gave them to a guy called Mathers to make them fit grades in the Golden Dawn. They looked somewhat similar to a 15th century code by Abbott Trithemius.
They became the basis for mostly all the attributions that we a familiar with now- given all the RWS clones of the last 100 years or so.
Mercury/Moon/Venus/Jupiter/Mars/Sun/Saturn
This I why I was confused- they look all most like Chakras/Colours, but not quite.
They do not fit, the Biblical/Chaldean/planetary/by eye or classical order/hours/days/weeks/SY-/rainbow/scale/chakra.... that I can tell.
So I am going to take them as misinterpretations to be kind. So to answer my own original question of the thread- are they a mess? Yes if I take the Golden Dawn Order. ~Rosanne
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Well I thought and thought and thought some more.... here is my list. I am happy with everything, but will have to consider Beit and Gimel (Saturn and Jupiter) before I can talk about these two .
Edited to correct Fire/Water back to where they should be . I forgot the rule of reason- never argue against something and then do exactly what you argued against! See Kwaw's Post below.

The Magician.........Aleph..........Air
The HP.................Beit............Saturn
Empress................Gimel..........Jupiter
Emperor................Daleth.........Mars
Heirophant.............He.............Aries
Lovers..................Waw..........Taurus
Chariot.................Zayin..........Gemini
Justice.................Heth...........Cancer
Hermit..................Teth...........Leo
Wheel...................Yod............Virgo
Strength...............Kaph...........Sun
Hanged Man..........Lamed..........Libra
Death...................Mem............Water
Temperance...........Nun............Scorpio
Devil.....................Samekh.......Sagittarius
Tower...................Ayin............Capricorn
Star......................Peh............Venus
Moon....................Tsadhe........Aquarius
Sun......................Qoph...........Pisces
Judgement.............Resh...........Mercury
World....................Shin...........Fire
Fool......................Tau...........Moon
Now I more than happy if anyone feels the need to put me right. Please do, if your study shows me in error. These are my personal correspondences- I am not a Hebrew scholar, but this is mainly astrological/ biblical/Seasonal/ chaldean based as far as I can get it all together ~Rosanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Strange, I just tried it with 'Beziers, FR' and it worked fine.

You Could Try Here:
http://www.astroloji.net/EN/planetaryhours.asp

I went to atlas and changed to Beziers, France; you can click the box to ‘make favoured location’ so this location will be there everytime you visit.

Hope that works for you, best of luck.

Kwaw
Thanks Kwaw! This Turkish site is excellent. I'm sure it'll come in handy sometme.
Top   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
Now I more than happy if anyone feels the need to put me right. Please do, if your study shows me in error. These are my personal correspondences- I am not a Hebrew scholar, but this is mainly astrological/ biblical/Seasonal/ chaldean based as far as I can get it all together ~Rosanne
I find it all perfectly acceptable bar your change of fire/water, shin/mem. It seems to me you are doing what you have found objectionable in the GD, only worse, because you have ended up changing allocations of attributions to letters for which there has not been any dispute and ergo little defence, in order to correlate with your conception of the meaning of a tarot card with which they likely were never originally associated with. In the end you have ended up, just like the GD which you criticise, with a correlation that does not correspond with attributions that exists in any version of the SY. Change fire and water back and your attributions to the letters will correspond to those which are attested to in the oldest version of the SY. This is my own favoured set, with the small difference of course that I prefer to start alef-fool

MYM means water. The Egyptian hieroglyph for the M sound was the first of the Egyptian letters discovered and described as having a phonetic basis, by Kircher, who related it to the Coptic word for water and the M sound.

Kwaw
Top   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
The Egyptian hieroglyph for the M sound was the first of the Egyptian letters discovered and described as having a phonetic basis, by Kircher, who related it to the Coptic word for water and the M sound.

Kwaw
Having mentioned Kircher and for the sake of completeness and those interested in Christian Cabala we may as well I suppose list his planetary attributions:

Beit - Sun
Gimel - Venus
Daleth - Mercury
Kaph - Luna
Peh - Saturn
Resh - Jupiter
Tau - Mars

[source: notes to the Sefer Yetzira by William Wynn Westcott]

Since the late 19th century the attributions of the Gra [18th century] have become the standard in Jewish Kabbalah:

Beit - Moon
Gimel - Mars
Daleth - Sun
Kaph - Venus
Peh - Mercury
Resh - Saturn
Tau - Jupiter

These are the attributions used in some 20th century Spanish decks, making them as far as I am aware the only ones to correspond to any actual redaction of the SY, albeit a late one.

[Decker/Dummet suggest the source for the attributions of these Spanish decks is Westcott's essay on the 'Isiac Tablet of Bembo' in which he uses the Gra attributions. They do not give their reasons for this suggestion].

Kwaw
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Thanks Kwaw! I stand corrected. I should now leave this forum as my list looks nothing like RWS. I feel purified.
I like the lunacy of the Fool, but I understand much better why you start with Aleph=Fool. ~Rosanne
Top   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Having mentioned Kircher and for the sake of completeness and those interested in Christian Cabala we may as well I suppose list his planetary attributions:

Beit - Sun
Gimel - Venus
Daleth - Mercury
Kaph - Luna
Peh - Saturn
Resh - Jupiter
Tau - Mars

[source: notes to the Sefer Yetzira by William Wynn Westcott]

Kwaw
Kircher is therefore based upon para 42 and 43a [Gruenwald] which can be found in versions of both the short and long versions [manuscripts K and A] as noted in previous post:

para 42 and 43a:

Short version [K] And with them were carved out seven firmaments, seven earths, seven hours and seven times. Therefore he loved the seventh under heaven.

These are the seven planets in the universe: Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars. And the days in the years: the seven days of creation. And the seven apertures in mankind: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and the mouth.

Long version [A] And with them were carved out seven firmaments, seven earths, seven hours and seven days. Therefore he loved the seventh above everything under heaven.

These are the seven planets in the universe: Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars. And the seven days: the seven days of creation. And the seven apertures in mankind: two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and the mouth.

That is the first 7 planetary hours [counting from sunrise] of the first day of creation [the first seven hours from sunrise of Sunday].

Kwaw
Top   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
This is my own favoured set, with the small difference of course that I prefer to start alef-fool

Kwaw
One of them at any rate, the symbolism is so multivalent I have no particular problem in considering attributions as so many local variables. My squaring the circle method matched the bateleur card with the sun card, and popesse with the moon card; thus suggesting a planetary day correspondence:

bateleur - sun
popesse - moon
empress - mars
wheel of fortune - mercury
house of god - jupiter
sun - venus
world - saturn

I am quite happy working with spanish, the english or french school variations or my own attributions with letter, numerological and astrological attributions as so many local as opposed to global variables; all perfectly workable within their own sub-set.

Kwaw
Top   #40




 


 


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