How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

Gavriela said:

I get it sort of, I think - there are so many Christians in the world who have done great evil that I could never be Christian. It is, after all, the bloodiest religion ever to reign the earth. So I could never participate in it.

Something like that with you and kaballah?

Click to expand...

Not at all....like I said before, each to their own....and if folks want to use the Kabbalah I haven't got a problem with that cos that is thier life and up to them...

Like the ones who like/follow Crowley...it's their life and up to them.....

I have some veiws, I just plain and simple don't like the guy or anything he stood for.....

And yes, there has been bloodshed in Christianity, but that could be said for Islam as well couldn't it....and Cathlics and Protestants have had their moments in history too re the bloodshed...

I can't control what others do, but I can control who I like and who I don't.....

All I know is that I pull some cards, and they 'say' something to me....not even what I have been asked about, but probably further back in the querants life....something I know nothing about....I know that I see things moving in the house, like shadows.....I know that both my parents on the other side are with me.....and I am, worryingly, starting to think things of folks that pop into my head when I see them.....things that unless I ask them if I'm right, I will/should never know about.....and that will do for me, without adding to it...

I think that, as with anything in life, you take something where YOU want it to go....do as much or as little as YOU want to do....and of course the best way to do it very often is to learn and make mistakes as you go along and remember those mistakes as a learning curve...

And if somehwere along that way you discover something that you are unsure about, then ask. If you don't like what you hear.....then be true to yourself and don't get involved.....not just for the sake of 'fitting in' or for going along with veiws, as some veiws are for Crowley, that he was the bees knees when you might actually think he'd have been better off locked up in Rampton.

But you see it is personal veiws. We all have them, and we differ. We have to differ, cos that is the way of the world and all in it....

Ang x

Whoever Knows Only Their Own Time Remains A Child

In ancient days of old there were popular myths you told your children. Fables of how the seasons were born & how people learned of agriculture. But when the time came you sought to know more about life there were the initiations into deeper mysteries. There were Heirophants & Priestesses who would help you see the Truth concealed in those children's fables. They would help you see for yourself.

The problem with much of Christianity today is that Christians tend to only have the children's fables to go on. Same with Islam and Judaism. The Truth concealed in those myths has been resting in your Tarot. if you choose to look for it you may still find your way through the Tree.

Or would you prefer another 1600 years of spoon fed nursery rhymes?

Yygdrasilian said:

In ancient days of old there were popular myths you told your children. Fables of how the seasons were born & how people learned of agriculture. But when the time came you sought to know more about life there were the initiations into deeper mysteries. There were Heirophants & Priestesses who would help you see the Truth concealed in those children's fables. They would help you see for yourself.

The problem with much of Christianity today is that Christians tend to only have the children's fables to go on. Same with Islam and Judaism. The Truth concealed in those myths has been resting in your Tarot. if you choose to look for it you may still find your way through the Tree.

Or would you prefer another 1600 years of spoon fed nursery rhymes?

Click to expand...

I quite like a good nursery rhyme....
Ang x

Hey Ange, I agree there is a lot to explore in Tarot alone, without any add-ons.

Any peripheral studies that you decide to pursue, if you're to get anything out of them, should surely be those you choose out of an interest and desire to pursue, those that you feel fit into your world view and help you along your path. I too think the world would be a boring old place if we all thought alike or all had the same interests.

But I would suggest that every now and then you take a look at things you've dismissed before and put out feelers for them again, just in case later on they spark more of your interest. I've found that happens to me, and is the reason I'm exploring a lot of things now that I only glanced at in the past, including Kabbalah. But even so, I'm taking my sweet time.

To each his own. Those are definitely words I live by. Happy Taroting!

Nevada

Yygdrasilian said:

In ancient days of old there were popular myths you told your children. Fables of how the seasons were born & how people learned of agriculture. But when the time came you sought to know more about life there were the initiations into deeper mysteries. There were Heirophants & Priestesses who would help you see the Truth concealed in those children's fables. They would help you see for yourself.

The problem with much of Christianity today is that Christians tend to only have the children's fables to go on. Same with Islam and Judaism. The Truth concealed in those myths has been resting in your Tarot. if you choose to look for it you may still find your way through the Tree.

Or would you prefer another 1600 years of spoon fed nursery rhymes?

Click to expand...

Wow. After all accusations of people "dismissing" other people's beliefs (which, as it turned out, was never the case), we have a clear example of just that. Typical of Crowley devotees -- this attitude was prevalent in the OTO when I was hanging out with that crowd. Nice going.

Greg Stanton said:

It's typical of Crowley devotees to dismiss traditional religion. Nice going.

Click to expand...

Of course, that is the entire point of Crowley's philosphy, its not possible to embrace his philosphy and "traditional religion" at the same time. To do so is much the same as saying "I'm a presbyterian wiccan" Oil and water. The point of Thelema is that the old religions of the dying god are to be supplanted by new religions with a new understanding of immortality, not based on sacrifice or the death and resurrection of a god/like figure head who acts on your behalf. Instead, you recognise yourself as god-like and act on your own behalf.

Not that I would dismiss the value of a good nursery rhyme, they are equally as valuable as any other mythos. Red Riding Hood is not any less profound than Eros and Psyche, or David and Goliath. None are entirely literal fact with the backing of scientific historical research. But all are Real, even more so if looked at through the lense of Kabbalah, or some form of initiation.

Yygdrasilian said:

The problem with much of Christianity today is that Christians tend to only have the children's fables to go on. Same with Islam and Judaism. The Truth concealed in those myths has been resting in your Tarot. if you choose to look for it you may still find your way through the Tree.

Or would you prefer another 1600 years of spoon fed nursery rhymes?

Click to expand...

Read the bible in Hebrew, then tell me that. I respect the Christian and Islamic views of it, they're valid, too. But they tend to miss the Jewish point of view. Taking sacred literature literally isn't, has never been, a Jewish thing.

Gavriela said:

Read the bible in Hebrew, then tell me that. I respect the Christian and Islamic views of it, they're valid, too. But they tend to completely miss the point. Taking sacred literature literally isn't, has never been, a Jewish thing.

Click to expand...

This was my impression also. Literal interpretation of the Old Testament seems to be a Christian thing, and not Jewish. Another reason I wish my knowledge of Hebrew was greater, I'd love to read a Jewish version without the translation of english speaking Christians. That would be really exciting. Sadly I am not any further then sounding out the letters, and then wondering what the word might be (let alone mean).

Gavriela said:

Read the bible in Hebrew, then tell me that. I respect the Christian and Islamic views of it, they're valid, too. But they tend to miss the Jewish point of view. Taking sacred literature literally isn't, has never been, a Jewish thing.

Click to expand...

True. There are plenty of orthodox jews living here in Los Angeles, and they are the most tolerant and liberal bunch I know.

similia said:

Of course, that is the entire point of Crowley's philosphy, its not possible to embrace his philosphy and "traditional religion" at the same time. To do so is much the same as saying "I'm a presbyterian wiccan" Oil and water. The point of Thelema is that the old religions of the dying god are to be supplanted by new religions with a new understanding of immortality, not based on sacrifice or the death and resurrection of a god/like figure head who acts on your behalf. Instead, you recognise yourself as god-like and act on your own behalf.

Click to expand...

So is there some kind of double-standard going on here? Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but there was a lot of upset earlier in this thread because people were under the impression that certain beliefs and POVs were being "dismissed".

So now it's ok, as long as it's from a Thelemite?

Crowley started life as a fundie Christian, and more than a little bit of that shows through in Thelema. Yes, I have been to OTO Gnostic Masses, and I am familiar with the man's work - I don't use his deck because I think Waite had the right of it more than Crowley did when it came to making a kabbalistic deck, plus Bill Gray was one of the people I first studied tarot with - and he used Waite's deck and his own kabbalistic assignments. Plus I'm Jewish. Jewish kabbalah works fine without any tarot attached, though one can find a great deal of depth in tarot using it, too.

It just saddens me that somebody would dismiss kabbalah because somebody who didn't know a lot about it tacked some Hindu philosophy to it, then made up his own religion and stuck kabbalah on it.

Not that that's going to change Ange's mind, but then we're back to the 'if you avoid everything Crowley did, you'll have to give up living' argument.

There are reasons to not learn kabbalah. Crowley, however, is not really a reason.