Chess as a factor in the origin of Tarot

I agree, that especially Trionfi cards likely had a real strong small sister existence, considering, that some games in 15th century were not or less open for women, also considering, that one of the very few longer texts of 15th century related to Trionfi cards is directed towards a woman (the Boiardo poem ... the other text worth to be mentioned of 15th century is ONLY Martiano da Tortona's description of the Michelino deck and the third in this row might be the letter of Jacopo Antonio Marcello, also relating to the Michelino deck). Further there are these remarkable snippets of Savoy 1430, that men were only allowed to play cards, when playing with women, the note in the description of the frescoes in the castle of Pavia, that "the fresco with Tarocchi players were in the room, where the women took their meals" and the fact, that Bianca Maria Visconti herself appears as commissioner of Trionfi decks in 1452. Isabella d'Este appears as a collector of playing cards (who else), and Bianca Maria Sforza brought a playing card deck to her wedding, something, which is also suspected for many other brides in the period.

Considering reality nowadays, I would assume, that worldwide more money is spend for playing cards than for chess boards or chess figures, so something did change between 15th century and 21st. The machines in Las Vegas (often somehow related to playing cards), the Black Jack tables and its relatives are another public dimension of cards and also all this games like Spider Solitaire, Freecell and Online Hearts and Online Spades (the basic ames in the Windows world) show, that even a computer game dimension exist.
Chess did win a lot of interest, when the first chess roboters appeared on the market (each toy distributor in the 80's and 90's offered them with some enthusiasm), but ... reality has it, that any old game suffered in its dominant influence cause all this new game forms during the passed 30 years through the offer of new electronic games.

But, nonetheless, if it's a small-sister or a small brother ...

... .-) ... with Chess as big brother the small Trionfi card questions gets another, far bigger public ... .-)

... ... well, let's speak it out in the open, a greater part of the Tarot-diviner-community is history-resistant. The focus is on the subjective "my history" or better "my future", not on global views, historical aspects or other complicating matters.
And if you wish evidence for this, then see, that we both make for the moment the talking here ... .-)

Chess enthusiasts instead display some intellectual life instead (well, it's an intellectual game, no doubt) and historical aspects should have some interests. So, for the humble Tarot historian, simply the "far bigger public" ... even, if playing cards had more success in 20th century than chess.

Huck said:

But, nonetheless, if it's a small-sister or a small brother ...

... .-) ... with Chess as big brother the small Trionfi card questions gets another, far bigger public ... .-)

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In Utopia maybe but not here, it is hard enough to get enthusiasm for others to post- although it appears many forum participators read the threads.

... ... well, let's speak it out in the open, a greater part of the Tarot-diviner-community is history-resistant. The focus is on the subjective "my history" or better "my future", not on global views, historical aspects or other complicating matters.
And if you wish evidence for this, then see, that we both make for the moment the talking here ... .-)

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Yes, I often wonder if you and I and a few others belong to a 'History Ranting Forum', where we like the sound of our own words rather than expect a reply.
I keep expecting a reply as one would on a Forum, but the interest is not there. I think there is the sense, that somehow gleaning out facts somehow takes away the magic of the cards. Although that does not happen with myself, I can understand this thought. I have a positively exquisite Chess set, made of Ivory, whose beauty and use is now diminished by the fact of it's Ivory History.

Chess enthusiasts instead display some intellectual life instead (well, it's an intellectual game, no doubt) and historical aspects should have some interests. So, for the humble Tarot historian, simply the "far bigger public" ... even, if playing cards had more success in 20th century than chess.

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Well here again is the difference between my brothers and myself playing Chess. I am passable at the game, but I win, when I win, because I discern what my male opponent is going to do, rather than logically play the game.
Also I provide the pieces and Board for a game and they are therefore imbued with my magic (that is a joke Huck!)
So how do you think the humble Tarotist, loving history, can improve these things? Keep burbling on? You and I have a rude row to drag the punters in?
Suggest I have found Crowley's long lost ancestor who wrote a manuscript?
Stop posting? Or accept that Trionfi cards are long distant female relative of an army of Sabine Warriors called 'Diviners'?
Do teacup readers want to know where their tea comes from? Do they consider that the tea leaves they are reading are not Fair Trade Tea?
So all that said.... you keep on posting and I will keep on reading (both ways)
Or maybe invade a Chess forum (in English)

~Rosanne

May another chess player join this conversation? Although I haven't played for ages because I can't find anyone to play with!

I do consider the fact - if it's still valid - that both chess & cards were in China (money cards). So for me, both chess & cards have a mystical oriental *touch*. As this is purely personal I don't suppose it was really worth mentioning, but who knows what future historians may unearth......


Bee

Bernice said:

May another chess player join this conversation? Although I haven't played for ages because I can't find anyone to play with!

I do consider the fact - if it's still valid - that both chess & cards were in China (money cards). So for me, both chess & cards have a mystical oriental *touch*. As this is purely personal I don't suppose it was really worth mentioning, but who knows what future historians may unearth......


Bee

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They'd real chess cards in China, though with Chinese Chess figures (Xiangqi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangqi



... so that, what I postulate for older Trionfi decks, is a reality in Chinese card games (though with some doubt, how old these cards and related games are).

For instance:


(the Chinese signs present chess figure names)
http://www.pagat.com/class/chess.html

Occasionally they are a little figurative, then a little more "like Tarot Cards".


http://a_pollett.tripod.com/cards18.htm

Rosanne said:

Well here again is the difference between my brothers and myself playing Chess. I am passable at the game, but I win, when I win, because I discern what my male opponent is going to do, rather than logically play the game.
Also I provide the pieces and Board for a game and they are therefore imbued with my magic (that is a joke Huck!)

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... ... good players naturally know, that psychic powers are active factors also in board games with "full information". Polite good players attempt to not use them, but that's not easy. ... .-) Chess players are often not polite ... they're in stress, cause there are so much opportunities to play remis. Also the game idea is destructive. Start with a full board and at the end there is Hamlet or something similar, "Kriemhild's Rache".

So how do you think the humble Tarotist, loving history, can improve these things? Keep burbling on? You and I have a rude row to drag the punters in?
Suggest I have found Crowley's long lost ancestor who wrote a manuscript?
Stop posting? Or accept that Trionfi cards are long distant female relative of an army of Sabine Warriors called 'Diviners'?

Click to expand...

Crowley claimed to have been a splendid talent for chess till the event, that he met a real chess master and found him ugly and not fulfilling his own idealistic aspirations.

Do teacup readers want to know where their tea comes from? Do they consider that the tea leaves they are reading are not Fair Trade Tea?
So all that said.... you keep on posting and I will keep on reading (both ways)
Or maybe invade a Chess forum (in English)

~Rosanne

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It's a pity, I didn't found till now a worthy Chess history forum, at least not for really old chess ... Mostly they understand with chess history 19th century or so.

It is interesting that you could make a game of particular cards from the Visconti PMB, that matches the Chinese Chess.
and if you look at the cards you will see there are hints where to put the cards.
The Governor in this case is the Magician and the throned Kings and Queens the soldiers.
I have a small spare Visconti that I will put holes in and put them on shield stands and make a cardboard board and see if the game is possible. I will need another deck that I can make the opponent.

At least there appears a sort of Game that you might be able to play with the white plinth cards.
Thanks for posting the Chinese game which is known as Xiangqi or Image Game.
~Rosanne

Hm ...

thinking about a relation between Chess and Tarot, then naturally one has to study chess and its development. From this it appears, that all our illusions about European Chess and its dominance and importance will get problems with reality. All the world played chess and they played it different. Europe wasn't a dominant spot on the world, but the land of the barbarians at the Western border. Who could imagine that they suddenly started to read and to write and even to print books and would bring unrest to the rest of the world with their canon ships, TV's and Jumbo jets?
No, I don't think, that any Xiangqi version reached Europe and took influence. The Mongolians were chess players himself, too, an they decided for the figure chess (not these round stones, which with the Chinese play) and the Mongols probably took this from the Persians, who got it rather early from India. Mongols were dominant near to Europe, not Chinese, likely it were Mongols, which brought playing cards, not Chinese traders.

Europe was reached by chess before the Mongols became of importance.

The general European idea had been, that Chess was invented in Persia. But there came a time, when Persia was ruled by nobility of Mongolian descend. From one of these Persian-Mongolian kings it is especially known, that he was very fond of chess, especially one version, the socalled Tamerlane Chess, named after this king, Tamerlane or Timur Lenk (Timur the lame) or Timur, a great conqueror. He reigned in the time, when playing cards became popular in Europe.



Thanks to Tamerlane Constantinople survived Osmanic attacks around 1400 ... without Tamerlane the cultural development "Greek texts to Italy" wouldn't have taken place so easily. The Italian Renaissance would have gotten another face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ankara

Huck said:

No, I don't think, that any Xiangqi version reached Europe and took influence.

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I was not suggesting that. I was suggesting that there are 14 Cards that have some sort of connection within the Visconti PMB. It suggests some other game that could be played. A kind of Chess if you will. Not a game of cards but an image moving type. Something like Fox and Hounds that is played with Chess pieces - 8 pieces aside.
I am trying to read some more stuff on Chess History- it seems that India was a stronghold as well.
I do not know much about the Timurid Dynasty.
Stop adding to my nearly overwhelming reading lists
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

I was not suggesting that. I was suggesting that there are 14 Cards that have some sort of connection within the Visconti PMB. It suggests some other game that could be played. A kind of Chess if you will. Not a game of cards but an image moving type. Something like Fox and Hounds that is played with Chess pieces - 8 pieces aside.
I am trying to read some more stuff on Chess History- it seems that India was a stronghold as well.

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The PMB and also the 14 Bembo trumps are likely already on the way to become a playing card deck, chess seems in this case to be only "memory", it influenced "once" the card motifs, but the concept seems to have been broken. Charles VI, Cary-Yale and Michelino deck are different, they have the "right number" 16.

India was "too far away" around 1440-1480. Persia in contrast was vital, as the Osmans were the foes of Persia and Persia the foes of the Osmans. Already in the time of Tamerlane and later in the time of Uzun Hassan there are attempts to reach political alliance ... which in practice was already "too difficult", as email and Jumbo jet didn't work.
A diplomatic journey could take easily two years for both directions and everywhere were dangers, that the diplomat wouldn't arrive.

A lot of the international Europe energy went towards a "next crusade" during renaissance. Contacts to foes of the Osmans were normal strategy. The contact between Uzun Hassan and Venice became intensified, when Venice started to have real declared war in 1463 - 1479 (1478 Uzun Hassan had died ... so precisely then Venice lost hope to win anything).

Naturally such necessary military contacts had cultural side effects like "what sort of of chess do you play meanwhile in Europe? We have ..."

I do not know much about the Timurid Dynasty.
Stop adding to my nearly overwhelming reading lists

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... ... you'll hear only the reduced version ...

Thank you for consideration for reduced versions to read Huck.

If you take the white plinth cards which include the Magician and the Chariot= 14 cards. If you add in The Love card of the Green glove and WOF of the Blue Sleeves (both have a form of white Plinth Time and Cupid) you come to two teams or sides of 8 cards.
Lets Call one side Love of the Green and the other team Fortune of the Blue, you can play a form of Chess or more likely a form of Draughts.
In my scan you can see how very clearly you can divide the teams into Green and Blue sides. It looks like an image game of some sort. There has to be a reason why you can do this visually- why 12 cards have obvious white plinths, and two (Chariot and Magician) could also have this white plinth in a different way.
Why would you put these figures on white plinths? They form a separate group within the Tarot deck.
I can think of no other purpose.