lovers, devil and feelings

lark said:

all this is said in love and with blessing to you BrightEye...I can feel you searching and you seem to be right on the edge of discovering...keep going.
It will bring happiness.

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Thank you, lark.

Solitaire* said:

Addiction=dysfunction and dysfunction in relationships=co-dependency. That sounds like what you describe there. Losing yourself in the presence of another in the desire to please that other. In co-dependency, a person becomes what they believe they need to be to win or to keep the love of the one they love.

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You're right. I used to do that. I try not to anymore. What I try to do now is live with the empty feeling. Not nice.

BrightEye said:

You're right. I used to do that. I try not to anymore. What I try to do now is live with the empty feeling. Not nice.

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There shouldn't be an empty feeling. Your partner should fill it for you.

Look, you talk about bending yourself to please someone else--that's the Devil if it's just you and the other person is getting a charge out of seeing you bend yourself into knots for them. It's the Lovers if the other person is doing the same for you. In the best relationships, we want our partner to be themselves--the BEST themselves there is. And--here's the important thing--even in relationships where one person is happiest when pleasing someone else, and the other is happiest being pleased, this is STILL in effect.

You sound like the sort of person who feels complete when they're doing things for others, and that's great. If that's you, than that's you. But the person in the Lover's card isn't someone who just wants to be pleased by their partner. It's someone who *recognizes* the pleasure you're getting in doing things for them. This person is not going to say, "Do this to please me or I will not love you!" this person is going to say, "Do this for me because it makes you happy and I love seeing you happy." They will let you please them because it makes you happy, makes you you, not because they selfishly enjoy watching people bend themselves out of shape for them.

Does that make sense?

BrightEye,

Here's a different perspective that I haven't seen mentioned. As part of my deck study process, I've laid the Majors out in 9 columns. When done this way, the Lovers and The Devil are in the same column because both cards relate to the number 6. Numerologically, 6 can mean many things, but here's what I just wrote about the relationship between these two cards (while in the back of my mind remembering there was a thread that discussed these exact two cards):

"Sixes are cards of choice, harmony and taking responsibility. The Lovers is about making choices and accepting the responsibility of choices that have been made. The Devil suggests the need for one to choose to take responsibility for their addictions and address them in order to break free of them."

In thinking further about it, the Lovers seems to be about making the choice to move toward something while the Devil seems to be about making the choice to move away from something.

So with regard to the original question, I think that the Lovers card as someone's feelings for another would be a positive card since it would suggest that this someone is making the choice to move toward the other person with the intent to form a relationship with them. (Of course, I'm assuming that there are other cards and that they reinforce this particular interpretation.)

BrightEye said:

Or does the devil have a negative side always attached to it....

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This question kind of got glossed over and never really answered. All of the cards have both positive and negative meanings to them. The Devil is usually seen as a negative card, but it doesn't always have to be negative.

If A were only interested in B for sex and consulted the tarot about B's feelings for A and got the Devil, the Devil would probably then be a good card since the suggestion would be that B is sexually interested in A and we already know that A is sexually interested in B.

A friend who reads was doing a spread about her future love life and asked what type of man she should be looking for. She got the Devil and was really confused by that card. So she asked a bunch of us what we thought and the consensus was that she should be looking for a physical relationship with a man who is sexy and/or sexual.

If I got the Devil as an answer to "Where should I be focusing my energies right now?" I would take that to mean that I should be trying to free myself of something (or someone) that's holding me back.

I take all three of those examples to be positive sides of the Devil card. Now if A were in love with B and asked about B's feelings for A and got the Devil, that wouldn't be a good card for A.

Hopefully something I've said has been of use, even if only to kick start some other thought.

Rodney

Thirteen said:

There shouldn't be an empty feeling. Your partner should fill it for you.

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But they don't. Not in my experience. It's probably beyond their capacity to do so. Maybe the hole is too large to be filled.

What you say in the rest of your post does make sense, but it sounds like this would only happen in an ideal world.

rwcarter said:

So with regard to the original question, I think that the Lovers card as someone's feelings for another would be a positive card since it would suggest that this someone is making the choice to move toward the other person with the intent to form a relationship with them. (Of course, I'm assuming that there are other cards and that they reinforce this particular interpretation.)

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Thanks, Rodney. I will come back to this in full later. The other cards were 3 of pentacles and 2 of wands, the latter of which I never trust, especially when it comes in Thoth-based guises. Self-control, dominion, I don't like these qualities. Self-control is not a bad thing, I know, but my mind emphasises control and power. Maybe a love relationship, yes, but one in which there would be a power struggle going on. Which I would normally associate with the Devil, by the way.

BrightEye said:

But they don't. Not in my experience. It's probably beyond their capacity to do so. Maybe the hole is too large to be filled.

What you say in the rest of your post does make sense, but it sounds like this would only happen in an ideal world.

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Actually, no one can fill a void that is inside of you but...YOU. It's impossible to expect another person to fill an emptiness that exists inside of you. A healthy, balanced relationship begins with two individuals who are each WHOLE. As soon as you start expecting, wanting, or needing the other person to make you whole, you're getting into dangerous territory. In other words, this is the foundation upon which dysfunctional, unhealthy relationships are built.

I guess you'd know about that, given your background. I'm aware of the fact that it itsn't a healthy way of relating, hence my attempt at 'living with the empty feeling', ie with the feeling of not being whole.

BrightEye said:

I guess you'd know about that, given your background. I'm aware of the fact that it itsn't a healthy way of relating, hence my attempt at 'living with the empty feeling', ie with the feeling of not being whole.

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I would suggest trying to find ways of addressing the emptiness instead of just living with it. Of course, living with it by yourself is better than allowing yourself to get pulled into a dysfunctional relationship; however, the emptiness is relevant to you, and it does matter. It comes from somewhere, and it can be filled by YOU (and you alone)- whether through counseling, meditation, or some other avenue...

I have a pretty good idea what's at the origin of all this. And it can be filled by me, but not (yet) to my satisfaction. Whatever I do is only an approximation of the fulfilment I would like to feel. But maybe that's the human condition.

BrightEye said:

I have a pretty good idea what's at the origin of all this. And it can be filled by me, but not (yet) to my satisfaction. Whatever I do is only an approximation of the fulfilment I would like to feel. But maybe that's the human condition.

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Absolutely! And it's important to note that from a certain perspective, it's spectacular that you can visualize the ideal for which you strive, even if it takes some time to make it reality. Right?