Hey! Deck publishers!

Reading through these posts, I get the impressions that many people feel that publishers are either unaware of the various pet peeves of their customer base, or worse, that they are aware but don't care to listen or act.

But either conclusion doesn't make much sense to me. I doubt very much that they don't at least "lurk" and, if there really did seem that there was a significant consensus for some particular issue, that they would choose to disregard it (at least for a future products or re-prints).

I personally question both scenarios. From card stock to borders to organza bags there is often no common agreement. As Le Fanu suggested earlier. Borders that for some represent a distraction or waste of space that reduces the size of the image, for others is a protective barrier that takes the knocks of wear and tear from use and shuffling, and leaves the images itself relatively undamaged.

The oversize of the packaging as Debra indicated is driven in part to diminish shoplifting (How sad is that, and what does that say about the tarot community) To suggest therefore that publishers should then produce two sizes, one at a smaller packaging size for online purchases in order to reduce shipping weight and costs, makes sense at one level, but means splitting production. Diffentent sizes, quantities, inventories will result in additional costs and admin. One would have to weigh in all the financial and production ramifications that our wish lists might involve.

Cards stock. Many critique the quality and thickness, but its not a unanimous opinion. Many people also prefer the flexibility and don't want to shuffle cards that feel like drinks coasters.

The organza bags which are almost a source of ridicule to members here, might be seen as a convenient initial storage option by a less jaded general tarot audience. And what would you replace them with, something that would add to the cost, or eliminate them completely and save what 25 cents ???

The role of AT. once again as Le Fanu has pointed out, at some point most tarot collectors and regular readers have passed through these purple pages. However in my personal experience it no longer represents the most relevant reference point for feedback. I still participate (albeit far far less than before, for a number of reasons) and certainly listen to posts and opinions just as you are proposing the major publishers should. I have even changed images on work in progress projects based on such feedback. But compared to the volume of feedback I would receive from other social networks, AT is now a relatively small factor.

So one has to ask the following, is there in fact a consensus or any given point, and if so does that consensus extends beyond the inner circle of AT and represents a wider tarot/customer base. AT may have 2000 or so active members, but those that are seriously active in any significant or regular way is probably far less. In fact I'm guestimating that the sales from AT members (not all buy every deck) for any given deck would be less than 2% of what a major publisher would need to sell in just the first year to justify publishing the deck in the first place. I have no conclusive evidence for such numbers but they aren't just figures plucked out of the air, they are guestimates based on some statistics that I am privy to. Either way my point is that we need to consider things in the reality of a business perspective not just as a passionate group of (more involved than most) end users.

Nevertheless I'm not a nay sayer, or concluding there is no point in trying to act. On the contrary, if as a combined voice you wish to get together and propose changes to the major publishers, it certainly can't hurt. They would be arrogantly mistaken to at least not read and consider any proposals. But I think it would be worthwhile to back it up with a poll, that demonstrated a clear majority preference (both to them and yourselves) for whatever issue is being proposed. Because I have personally found that for most issues there is no clear preference.

I do see your point, Cirom

But what you are saying also seems to partially confirm what I am saying. Make your voice heard. You mentioned paying attention to people's opinions. Well what if no one had given their opinion? Whether collectively or individually, I believe we have a voice. I mentioned a poll, twice, earlier in this thread. That would at least be something. If more readers said they really didn't like something, at least it's something for publishers to view. Just like with any other product, we are the consumers, certainly not all or even a majority of them, but at least a large enough number that I feel our thoughts should be important if for no other reason than another perspective for publishers to see. One certainly can't please everyone, but everyone should be able to say to those who can change it, I would really have liked it better like...this. When reading reviews here or on amazon, there seems to often be some type of consensus re some issues. If a publisher reads about the same issue coming up over and over AND if people email them or do a poll, how can that do anything, but be helpful for future sales?

Absolutely.... go for it...

Just make sure there is a clear consensus first...
Good luck

NO argument there, Cirom!

I agree wholeheartedly. A poll, or polls, sound like the best option. That way everyone could get a say and it COULD give an idea if there is a very clear consensus.

Annabelle said:

What I personally want to see from tarot deck publishers is better EDITING.

Lo Scarabeo already has this down, perfectly. Their decks are consistent and show all the signs of having been produced by a strong team effort all around.

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This is true. I used to think that many of Lo Scarabeo's deck seemed like corporate productions, as if a committee of people had come up with the idea and then gone out and found an artist to illustrate it and that this made some of their decks less heartfelt and interesting. Now I appreciate this aspect much more because this is how ambitious and interesting projects like The Mona Lisa Tarot or Tarot of Ascension or As Above So Below get produced. The Tarot of Heroes (Schiffer) could have been a wonderful deck if someone sympathetic to the artists vision had worked alongside him to make sure it communicated the ideas well.

greatdane said:

If the idea is to see if more ATers like one thing or another re decks, isn't that how polls here work? Couldn't ATers take a few issues like cardstock, large borders, or any few issues that seem to come up a lot ( like changing suits so they aren't readily recognized like wands to squirrels or something) and do a poll? And then direct publishers to the poll? Even if publishers were just directed to certain threads, just seems something is better than nothing. And if nothing got done, at least we tried. What does it hurt to try to get their attention in some way? Tarotbear, I would love your thoughts with what could be the best way to go about this.

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I think this is a good idea, as has been supported by many others in this thread. Like Griz says,

Grizabella said:

Here's how I see it. Not just about this but about things in general. If nobody does anything then I guarantee nothing will be done about anything and things will stay the same. The one glimmer of hope for change is when people do do something. Even if only one person makes the effort, then at least somebody tried and the idea may catch on. To pour water on the spark of hope by saying, "Oh, that's not going to work anyway" is negative thinking and discourages people from ever trying to make a difference.

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I agree too that perhaps the best way to do this is with a poll of some sort on one particular issue that people here have. Perhaps we do only represent about 2% of the actual customer base for the company who is producing and selling said deck of tarot cards--but who knows, it may be the 2% from AT who is able to add to many other reviews that were submitted by yet other tarot card users/site that pushes the idea into being really payed attention to.

I do believe that something like this will be noticed. It may or may not be fruitful for the deck in question- but at least it may get a bit of attention that may help with the production of another tarot deck. I do believe companies pay attention to what the customers want. It would of course have to be well thought out and well presented, and like both tarotbear and cirom mentioned--we have to make sure that a review and letter of what the majority is looking for is delivered to the right person responsible for that particular issue and that it is a review being presented that is also going to be worth the company's time to pay attention to.

We would definitely have to keep in mind that some of the issues at hand may not make financial sense for the producer to pay attention to. It is not always feasible to print two different sizes of a tarot deck, nor does it seem feasible to omit the organza bag or flimsy cardboard box that is often included.

I have to agree that often I find both that bag and the box more of a pain to deal with then a help--but I'm not ready to fire off a letter to said company asking them to not include it. I realize that with omitting said bag/box really is not going to lower the cost of the deck significantly. However, other points of interest, such as card stock may be something they will pay attention to in the future--if said deck was to be reprinted in the future, or for another new deck coming into production. So, as long as we can forget the small stuff and perhaps pay attention to the important differences and go with the majority, it is something they will listen to and put into practice in the future. It certainly can't hurt to try anyway, can it?

I wonder if there's an argument to be made that vocal, visible Tarot Enthusiasts/TEs (of all stripes--collectors, pro readers, gamers, etc.), despite being a relatively small group even worldwide, could actually have a disproportionately strong effect on publishers owing to the fact the vast majority of tarot users are people totally oblivious to the issues we parse who will continue being a captive market no matter what is offered for sale.

In my opinion, the vast majority of the tarot-using world (and I have been "out there" in several different geographic locations in the U.S.) appears to be oblivious to the fact that there are potential options with regards to card stock thickness, lamination, borders, titles, size, etc etc. We are talking about people who sometimes do not even know the difference between the Major Arcana and Minor Arcana other than that the two are numbered differently, or what the name of their own deck is, or, if they have a few different decks, what the names of the respective publishers are, much less the various printing styles for which each publisher is known.

And those remaining users who aren't oblivious mayn't care at all. A non-TE gamer might purchase his or her TdM-style deck regardless of which card backs were chosen, and a non-TE reader might shrug their shoulders over image size and say, "As long as I can see the picture, it works for me."

Think about the things you use but are not passionate about---microwave ovens? Postage stamps? Dishes/dinnerware? Meh, I know there are lots of different types of all of the above and that some have better heating elements and ink saturation and ease of cleaning, respectively, but in those realms, I am content to make my purchase based on price and convenience and make do with whatever microwave, stamps and plates I decide upon. And once I have enough for my household's needs, I go about my business using them, without reference to the thousands of microwave, stamp and dish enthusiasts out there who parse the attributes of all these products.

This seems to be an argument in favor of online TEs identifying one or two common ground issues on which they agree and making a unified request of publishers. After all, if a large segment of the market is going to buy whatever happens to have been put on the shelf for them anyway, they might as well buy stuff that this small group of deck-crazy know-it-alls advocated for and worked towards getting made.

Now you just have to decide what issue to get organized about.

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Chiriku, That sums it up nicely, in the grand scheme of things most people in the Tarot community don't have sleepless nights over the issues that fill pages and pages of these threads. So by the same logic they will not react adversely to any changes either, changes that as a small but motivated group you might bring about.

So now just decide which of the various pet peeves are important enough and commonly agreed upon, in other words which battles are worth fighting for first.

Anyway its New Years eve, I have a party to go to.

Happy New Year to you all.

Hear, hear, cirom--yes, let's decide on what to communally gripe about.

Enjoy your party and Happy New Year to all, as well.

exactly what I was trying to get across too, cirom and chiriku.