"Killing the Thoth Deck" -Mary Greer

Aeon, thank you for those quotes from Magick in Theory and Practice. I can't help thinking that they would make an excellent starting point for a thread in Talking Tarot.


Gerd Ziegler, Angeles Arrien - two authors, one delusion.

Debra, you would be welcome to my Arrien, but I fear it's not even useful as a doorstop, as it's a large floppy paperback.

Sophie said:

Aeon, thank you for those quotes from Magick in Theory and Practice. I can't help thinking that they would make an excellent starting point for a thread in Talking Tarot.

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That's a good idea.

My personal favourite is the line about seeking supernatural sanction for folly. Don't we see example after example of people posting readings they don't understand because they already have an outcome in mind, but the cards don't match up. After that there's the usual display of psychological legerdemain, where the interpretation is twisted and contorted until it does match. This often comes under the broad brush called "intuitive reading".

Aeon418 said:

That's a good idea.

My personal favourite is the line about seeking supernatural sanction for folly. Don't we see example after example of people posting readings they don't understand because they already have an outcome in mind, but the cards don't match up. After that there's the usual display of psychological legerdemain, where the interpretation is twisted and contorted until it does match. This often comes under the broad brush called "intuitive reading".

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Ahem. I think I am insulted. It isn't a broad brush. (And I don't call it that any more, myself !)

Aeon418 said:

That's a good idea.

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So - you start it, or shall I?

Aeon418 said:

My personal favourite is the line about seeking supernatural sanction for folly. Don't we see example after example of people posting readings they don't understand because they already have an outcome in mind, but the cards don't match up. After that there's the usual display of psychological legerdemain, where the interpretation is twisted and contorted until it does match. This often comes under the broad brush called "intuitive reading".

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Haha, I know what you mean! And by the way, it also seems to work that way when the reader or querent has a negative outcome in mind. To be sure, divining well is a tricky art, and ego and personal prejudice and preference all too often intervene...We tell the would-be adulterer to desist because we are morally repelled by cheating, not because the cards predict disaster for him if he doesn't.

I know I've sometimes lost querents when I haven't told them what they wanted to hear. When it comes to the Thoth, I go back to Crowley whenever I have a doubt, and if I read for myself, doubly so. Not a complete fail-safe, of course.

I don't see how anyone can take a deck as a tabula rasa unless it's full of blank cards. The artwork speaks quite loudly for itself, as it should. I think that those who swear by reading all of Crowley's writings in order to read with the Thoth deck are missing the point of a tarot deck. The images should carry the message intended. If not, it's not a deck worth using, IMO. I read books associated with all my decks, if there are books, and I find that I get valuable information from them. But they can't possibly encompass all that the images on the cards do. Most authors/creators of tarot decks and books are quick to point this out. Was Crowley that far different in his approach to reading tarot that he would insist on using his book meanings? I don't see how most of his book meanings could be taken at all literally in a reading about someone living today, and I don't memorize book meanings for any deck I use. I wouldn't call myself a reader if I did that.

Most of what I get from deck creators (Crowley or anyone else) is help identifying objects and figures in the images and why those were considered appropriate symbols for those cards. What is that faint outline of a building? Oh, it's Solomon's temple. Why would that be in a tarot card? And so forth. Yes, the Book of Thoth is helpful with this. But not nearly as helpful as books by other writers who aren't so cryptic as Crowley. Much of what's in his book is also ON THE CARDS. The astrological correspondences, many of the more obvious symbols, colors, etc.

As to intuitive reading, Crowley claimed visions and inspirations himself. Am I supposed to trust only his intuition and not mine? I wouldn't be much of a reader if I didn't trust my ability to get a message from the lay of the cards. I'm not a Thelemite, nor do I follow any other religion when reading the cards. I'm a tarot reader.

Nevada said:

I don't see how anyone can take a deck as a tabula rasa unless it's full of blank cards. The artwork speaks quite loudly for itself, as it should.

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Exactly! And this is my problem with Angeles Arrien's book. Apparently the cards don't speak to her (or don't say anything she wants to hear), so she speaks for them. As we've already established the cards were designed according to specific principles that are designed to elicit a corresponding reaction in the sensitive reader (not taking ego warping into account). Arrien junked the whole lot and tried to supplant it with her own brand of self help revisionist tripe.

Nevada said:

I think that those who swear by reading all of Crowley's writings in order to read with the Thoth deck are missing the point of a tarot deck.

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Who are these people you're refering to? I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that all of Crowley's writings were mandatory reading?

Nevada said:

As to intuitive reading, Crowley claimed visions and inspirations himself.

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The modern Tarot usuage of the word "intuition" has practically nothing to do with how Crowley, Waite, and the rest of the Golden Dawn gang understood it. To them it was a kind of truth sense that was needed to distinguish truth from falsehood. Reading the Tarot was one method of developing this sense. The Tarot, being under the rulership of Mercury, could reveal the truth in certain situations. Then again it might be a pack of lies. This is where the development of intuition came in. This same sense of truth-intuition was vital if any kind of visionary work was to be under taken. Without it visionry work is fraught with the danger of delusion and the would be skryer is little more than a gullible fool who will be shown everything and anything he/she wants to see.

It's interesting to note that Tarot card reading was attributed to the path of Qoph and Atu XVIII The Moon. That should speak volumes. As should the attribution of Intuition to Atu VI The Lovers.

Nevada said:

I think that those who swear by reading all of Crowley's writings in order to read with the Thoth deck are missing the point of a tarot deck. The images should carry the message intended. If not, it's not a deck worth using, IMO.

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Then you had better throw away your Thoth, because Crowley and Harris designed it to go with a book, and didn't envisage that they would be parted. The Book of Thoth (book) is not a 'how-to': it contains the foundation upon which The Book of Thoth (deck) was built and is an integral part of the deck. In that sense, the Thoth is different from all other decks I can think of, with the possible exception of the Shining Tribe.

That's because the Thoth deck isn't a fortune-telling tool. It's a magickal tool designed to be used for magickal purposes, including oracular.

That said, there is no necessity to read all of Crowley's writings. But at the very least, the Book of Thoth (some would add - the Book of the Law, since it is a channelled book that illuminates the Thoth deck from the inside).

Nevada said:

Was Crowley that far different in his approach to reading tarot that he would insist on using his book meanings? I don't see how most of his book meanings could be taken at all literally in a reading about someone living today, and I don't memorize book meanings for any deck I use.

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Crowley doesn't give meanings for the cards. He opens pathways of understanding for the symbolism of the major and minor keys, as he had intended it. There is a serious difference. Much of the work along those pathways has to be done by the person working with the deck. Interpretation of those symbols in a reading situation is left entirely up to the reader. And yet, it is quite impossible to read the Thoth in any kind of depth without understanding those symbols and how they fit in the magickal system the Thoth represents. It's possible to do get there without the Book of Thoth (book), but it would be maniacally time-consuming, and still, a certain element would be lost. Not 'book meanings', but a light shone on symbols.

Removing magickal meanings and the intentions of its creators from the Thoth for use by non-magical readers is a bit like removing Jehovah from the Bible for use by atheists

Regarding the biographical note. I see that Richard Kaczynski says it actually was written by Martha Kuntzel/Soror I.W.E., while she and Crowley were still on good terms. That would be before June 1939. He never heard from her again after that. And it is thought that she died in December 1941.

The Book of Thoth was not published until 1944. How much did Kuntzel see of it (if at all) before it went to press? Did Crowley post a very early draft to her in Germany?

Nevada said:

Yes, the Book of Thoth is helpful with this. But not nearly as helpful as books by other writers who aren't so cryptic as Crowley.

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People often gripe and complain about Crowley's obscure and cryptic style. But that's one of the best things about them. His books unfold like a flower and reveal their secrets only when you are ready to see them. It's a bit like a time release system.

DuQuette comments on this same phenomenon in the first few pages of his book. He's absolutely right when he says that the book changes and grows with the reader.

Sophie said:

Then you had better throw away your Thoth, because Crowley and Harris designed it to go with a book, and didn't envisage that they would be parted. The Book of Thoth (book) is not a 'how-to': it contains the foundation upon which The Book of Thoth (deck) was built and is an integral part of the deck. In that sense, the Thoth is different from all other decks I can think of, with the possible exception of the Shining Tribe.

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Not happening. I've had it for over 20 years and I'm fine with it. Your way is best for you, mine is best for me. That's my point.

I'm not telling anyone else how to use it. I'm sure your choice is best for you. I would hardly find life worth living if we were all alike.

I find it interesting that Crowley was such a rebel against established forms and yet so many that are interested in his deck want everyone to conform to what he says.

Anyway, as I said earlier, there is so much ON THE CARDS. I love my Thoth, read with it nearly every day. I find it invaluable, and I would never give it up. The old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. Absolutely true of the Thoth, IMO.