The Star card

Windhorse

attn: moderator

I was wondering whether this thread and the other XVIII Star-based thread could become the foundations/beginnings of the Study group thread on this card?!

Between the two htreads, we have quite a lively and in-depth discussion.

What does everyone else think?

Dulcimer

sticking my oar in

What a fascinating thread this has become.

The problem I have with the arguement that Ha is such a "femanine letter" is that it often used in the same breath as arguing that Lamed = Libra and Teth = Leo. Well then, Ha = Aries!
The arguements about Justice must be Lamed because it is obviously Libra is quietly forgotten when The Star = Ha is concerned. Because that means The Star = Aries and The Emperor = Aquarius. But The Emperor is so "obviously" Aries.

All that stuff about Star and Emperor must be changed to balance the Zodiac because Waite changed round the positions for Strength and Justice? Oh come on. All waite did was swap the cards 'cause they looked more in keeping with the Zodiac. He didn't change the Tree or the Zodiac or the letters. But Crowley swaps Star and Emperor and we run around like headless chickens trying to make sense of it. And as for "all the letters of my book are aright but Tzadi is not The Star"? How can they ALL be "aright" except for one if we're supposed to swap it for another? The jokes on us guys and gals.

Way, way back in post 12, Aeon418 made the same (sexist

) error in the "Thoth, the Tree of Life and The Star" thread (I really wish I'd called it something else) about Tzadi = fishook = hunter, etc being a masculine thing. Whereas the gods of war were often (though not always) male, the greatest hunters in mythology were invariably female; Artemis, The Morrighan, Freyja and the Valkyries, to name but a few. And that doesn't include the dark and devious hunters such as the Sirens and Lilith.
Also, (as you yourself pointed out Aeon) Ha - the name of the letter - means "Lo!" and "behold" (the exclamation mark is not mine) which suggests to me a sharp, sudden ejeculation of, or appearance of, something visible. In other words, the letter may refer not to the opening, i.e. window, but instead to what comes through it. By the by, the letter itself refers to "an opening"; it doesn't have to be a window.

Aeon418

Windhorse said:
Now: remembering of course that the Adjustment/Lust swap was to justify the Star/Emperor swap (or was it the other way around...?), then I wonder why the former pair of cards retained their hebrew-letter-order? For then, the order is wrong; and of course, the order of the latter pair of cards is not changed at all, just the letter associations.

So in two places, the Hebrew-letter sequence is altered.

No. The founders of the Golden Dawn originally started off with the Tarot-Hebrew letter attributions given by Eliphas Levi in his "Dogme et Ritual". (Aleph = Magus etc., etc.) But they thought that was one of Levi's "blinds". So they changed it to the Fool = Aleph and carried on from there.

Then they hit a snag. The 9th letter of the Hebrew alphabet is Teth. Also the next sign in the Zodiac was Leo the Lion. Remember that we have also been following the sequence of the Zodiac so far as well. Aries - Taurus - Gemini - Cancer - Leo. To get around this problem the G.D. adepts swapped the cards Justice and Strength. So to keep the Hebrew alphabet and Zodiac sequence they altered the sequence of the Tarot. It's important to note that at this point there are no loops in the Zodiac.

Crowley was not happy with this state of affairs. When he (and Harris) designed the Thoth deck he retained the Golden Dawn's Hebrew letter and Zodiacal attributions, but then he put Strength and Justice back into their traditional places in the Tarot sequence. This is what creates the first loop in the zodiac that Crowley talks about where Libra and Leo pivot around Virgo.

The other loop at the opposite end of the zodiac is the pivot of Aries and Aquarius around Pisces. But the Emperor and the Star are already in their correct astrological places. The change happens in their Hebrew letter attribution and their position on the Tree of Life. Thus you have two different loops that keep the Tarot in it's traditional order and at the same time keep the Hebrew alphabet and the Zodiac in order.

Is that a little clearer? All this loop business is down to Crowley wanting to keep the Tarot in it's traditional order while maintaining a symetrical balance between the Hebrew letters and the Zodiac signs. It also conforms to that verse in The Book of the Law and resolves the odd correspondence between Heh and the Emperor.

Windhorse said:
Meaning that just because Lamed is traditionally associated with the astrological sign of Libra, doesn't mean that the use of the symbol of the scales of Justice signify that card's association with Libra, hence Lamed.

Well Lust has a Lion on it related to Leo. An obvious match. Plus it's a symbol of the fusion and interaction of the masculine and the feminine creating forward motion. It's not a symbol of passive balance.
Adjustment has the scales held by Maat the Goddess of the Balance. Another obvious match.
All the other Zodiacal Majors have corresponding symbolism that matches their Zodiacal sign. Are they all blinds as well?

Aeon418

Dulcimer said:
All that stuff about Star and Emperor must be changed to balance the Zodiac because Waite changed round the positions for Strength and Justice? Oh come on. All waite did was swap the cards 'cause they looked more in keeping with the Zodiac. He didn't change the Tree or the Zodiac or the letters. But Crowley swaps Star and Emperor and we run around like headless chickens trying to make sense of it. And as for "all the letters of my book are aright but Tzadi is not The Star"? How can they ALL be "aright" except for one if we're supposed to swap it for another? The jokes on us guys and gals.

Only if you view it in isolation. It has to looked at within the context of Crowley's Thelemic philosophy with it's emphasis on the divinity of the individual. With that in mind the position of the Emperor on the Tree of Life between Chokmah and Tiphareth makes no sense because it's a symbol of authority from above by God the Father with his endless list of petty rules and restrictions.

It's an important point to note that only the cards have moved, not the Hebrew letters.

Aeon418

Dulcimer said:
Way, way back in post 12, Aeon418 made the same (sexist) error in the "Thoth, the Tree of Life and The Star" thread (I really wish I'd called it something else) about Tzadi = fishook = hunter, etc being a masculine thing. Whereas the gods of war were often (though not always) male, the greatest hunters in mythology were invariably female; Artemis, The Morrighan, Freyja and the Valkyries, to name but a few. And that doesn't include the dark and devious hunters such as the Sirens and Lilith.

Ah, but how many of those same female mythological figures do we associate with the idea of motherhood as well. They represent the masculine type of the feminine, the Amazon etc.

Dulcimer said:
Also, (as you yourself pointed out Aeon) Ha - the name of the letter - means "Lo!" and "behold" (the exclamation mark is not mine) which suggests to me a sharp, sudden ejeculation of, or appearance of, something visible. In other words, the letter may refer not to the opening, i.e. window, but instead to what comes through it. By the by, the letter itself refers to "an opening"; it doesn't have to be a window.

But a window is still an opening. What comes through it has nothing to do with the window. Whether that be sun-light or a football. The window itself is very passive and and not at all masculine.
I still believe that the Emperor and Heh is a mis-match. It may have been appropriate when people believed that wisdom came down from on high from God to a passive receiver. But that idea is outdated now.

Dulcimer

Aeon418 said:
Ah, but how many of those same female mythological figures do we associate with the idea of motherhood as well. They represent the masculine type of the feminine, the Amazon etc.

Cute.

Aeon418 said:
But a window is still an opening. What comes through it has nothing to do with the window. Whether that be sun-light or a football. The window itself is very passive and and not at all masculine.
I still believe that the Emperor and Heh is a mis-match.

Too cute.

A window, or any opening for that matter, defines a space. But that space is meaningless without reference to what the space is used for. What comes through has everything to do with the window. Ask a glazier.

Aeon418 said:
It may have been appropriate when people believed that wisdom came down from on high from God to a passive receiver. But that idea is outdated now.

No. It isn't.

I must applaud you on your single-handed defence of the Thelemic corner. Your posts are always fascinating and your solutions are often ingenious. Respect.

But I can't allow you to sidestep the Star = Aries/Emperor = Aquarius issue. How do you explain THAT mismatch?

Aeon418

Dulcimer said:
But I can't allow you to sidestep the Star = Aries/Emperor = Aquarius issue. How do you explain THAT mismatch?

I don't have to defend it because it's a non-issue as far I'm concerned. The Star = Aquarius and the Emperor = Aries. Why do you suggest otherwise? I'm confused. (But not cute

)

Dulcimer

Aeon418 said:
I don't have to defend it because it's a non-issue as far I'm concerned. The Star = Aquarius and the Emperor = Aries. Why do you suggest otherwise? I'm confused. (But not cute)

Huh? If you change cards but not letters then the cards take on the attributes of the letters. It was the letters not the cards that were attributed the signs. Or have I been deluded for 30 years. And I think you are cute.

Aeon418

Dulcimer said:
Huh? If you change cards but not letters then the cards take on the attributes of the letters. It was the letters not the cards that were attributed the signs. Or have I been deluded for 30 years.

Yes, but the Golden Dawn made those attributions according to their system. In case of the Emperor - Heh correspondence they kind of ended up with a square peg in a round hole and then proceeded to "make it work".

Dulcimer

Aeon418 said:
Yes, but the Golden Dawn made those attributions according to their system. In case of the Emperor - Heh correspondence they kind of ended up with a square peg in a round hole and then proceeded to "make it work".

Yeah, you've mentioned that before. Do you have any evidence for this? I mean one that doesn't involve a tortuous (for me) explanation of Emperor vs Star? I mean to say it didn't seem to be a problem until AC made it so. Or am I misrepresenting him?