Mirror of the Soul

Nininka said:

I do not see anywhere in that statement anything which would imply that Arries thinks Crowley and Harris did not know what they were doing.

She loves the cards and the symbolism they contain.
I think it is simply the fact that for many the Book of Thoth is way too esoteric.

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But this is the whole point. The Thoth Tarot is an esoteric deck. It was specifically designed to convey an esoteric doctrine in pictorial form. This was the intention of both of it's creators. If you follow Angeles Arrien and replace the esotericism with pop-psychology you are using the deck in a way it was never intended to be used.

Of course everyone is entitled to use the Thoth deck in anyway they like. But if you deviate from the original intention behind the symbolism and try to read something else into it you are no longer learning Thoth Tarot, you are learning something else.

I am really sorry, but I just cannot agree.
The Tarot Handbook is rich with symbolism, the astrology and such.
It is just put across in an understandable manner.
I really do not think the author is making her own version of the Thoth, she
is focusing on the symbols in the cards and their meanings, and as she has obtained a degree in symbology she does know a great deal about it.
She is not novice to Egyptian symbols or anything like that, so I would say that makes her understand the Thoth tarot which is rich in symbols of different cultures quite well.

I think that as opposed to for example Ziegler who merely skims on the surface and does not actually offer the reader with explanations of what the cards depicts and where is that coming from, but instead offers a lot of new age fluff, this author actually tries to see what Crowley might have been trying to depict in the cards by choosing the symbols, colours and images he did.

I do not understand why you would pick a sentence out of the chapter context from The Tarot Handbook book and base your opinion on that.
In addition to this, is not every one of the Thoth books out there on the market written for the very same purpose ? I.e. to put the info from The Book of Thoth in a more digastable form. From many a thread on this website for example it is quite clear that The Book of Thoth is way too esoteric for many people, to the point of lacking any comprehension.
Plus The Book of Thoth in my opinion does not work as a tool for self growth, does not offer affirmations etc., merely describes a concept. So I think other books on Thoth definitely have what to add in this respect.
In my opinion this is what the author of The Tarot Handbook has managed to do quite wonderfully, without putting herlself into the cards, which is something I feel has happened with Ziegler, it seems to reflect a lot of his personal views on the world and strays away from what is actually in the cards.

You could actually accuse any author out there that they think they can do better than The Book of Thoth, otherwise why are they trying to write a book on this tarot ?

While reading Arrien's book it becomes painfully clear she completely disregards Crowley's explanation of the symbolism in favour of her own. Either that or she never actually read The Book of Thoth in the first place.

An example chosen at random:
Page 95 and her description of The Aeon. Arrien claims that there is a depiction of the god Osiris on this card and this starts her rambling on about family for some bizarre reason. Can you see Osiris, because I can't. Nobody who has actually read The Book of Thoth could make that mistake. I'm afraid that is typical of what you find all throughout the book. She makes it up as she goes along. New Age.

Your complaint that The Book of Thoth is not a tool for self growth is really strange. Ask anyone who has bothered to put in the hardwork, time, and effort needed to study the book.

In addition to this, is not every one of the Thoth books out there on the market written for the very same purpose ? I.e. to put the info from The Book of Thoth in a more digastable form.

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This is my entire point. Arrien has NOT put the information in The Book of Thoth into a more digestable form. She ignores the information again and again all throughout her book. Instead she gives her own interpretations of the symbolism, which quite often bear little resemblance to the intended meaning.

I have only eer read one book on the Thoth, and that's Crowleys. I never got around to getting any others. But the Schuster one looks well funny.

I read that bit that was posted.

It was so middle class. Especially the bit about the middle classes.
The words of someone who used to be middle class and rejected it's values and now thinks everyone else should do the same.

I did laugh. I'll have to track it down if I can.

Nininka said:

I have read The Book of Thoth and could not really make much out of it.
Kudos to those who possess the knowledge needed to understand it, but for someone like me it is too estoteric and not applicable to practical readings.

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Ummmm.
'for someone like me it's too esoteric'
no. It's not.
I'm sure you are no different from me. I started reading that book way back when i was hardly more than an ignrant kid.
20 odd years later I'm an ignorant adult.
I still read it and I get something different out of it every time.

There's whole lyers of meaning in there, from very simple meanings for 'fortune telling' (try near the back, they are tucked away there, but they are very useful) to all this amazing deep esoteric stuff that only makes sense on ever other full moon when you are off your head.

you don't need to posess knowledge to understand it.
By reading it you gain the knowledge to understand it, a bit at a time.
As you read it and as you learn, it opens up in layers, like a flower.

Like using the deck.
Some people say they have to learn stuff before they can use the deck.
No. not true. You learn stuff by using the deck. It's the whole point of it.

>>while reading Arrien's book it becomes painfully clear she completely disregards Crowley's explanation of the symbolism

oh, I agree completely... Arrien's book is the single worst writing on the Thoth...(would be better for a non-hermetic deck)

The Thoth is beautiful and so rich and deep in attributions, that is much of the reason for adopting the deck..and you receive so much from the tradition and hermetic energies .. the collective "un"consciousness.... SO to redefine the intrepretations looses all ther hermetic power ...IMHO, you can do real damage in someone's thoth education by recommending the Arrien... wasting their time...they're better off making their own

I've read every book on Thoth, have a notebook of over 1000 pages of my own research (which will be published one day) and Thoth has proven to be the most amazing tool.. amazingly deep and accurate.. but because I know the many, many layers of attributions.. it opens possibilities for my intuition in a way no other deck does.. (though I have dozens of deck that I like, but they're not THOTH)

Learn the Thoth, and you learn Tarot ... and the Great Work of which all hermetics serve..

Thoth is the opening, the guide book, the road map for the wonderous discoveries and realizations.... I've deeply studied the Crowley Book of Thoth, 777, then moved on to Qabala, Egyptian myth/religion, alchemy, astrology, elementals, etc. etc. etc... it has been a marvelous experience of the path of wisdom , mystery and myth and magick

now when I hold the Thoth cards, and lay them out.... it is a divine experience ....

in the end, you will of course make adjustments, changes in your interpretations etc. of Thoth elements.. but starting with the commonality is obviously the most effective route

Nininka said:

the author ... is not novice to Egyptian symbols or anything like that, so I would say that makes her understand the Thoth tarot which is rich in symbols of different cultures quite well.

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I am not novice to Egyptian symbolism either (and some of the other cultural symbols in Thoth) but an important point to remember is that, today, our comprehension of Egyptian symbolism is quiet different to what AC's was and many people of that time. The symbolism might be better explained as 'Thelemic Neo-Egyptian'. eg. Crowley's Thelemic concept of Nuit is quiet different from the classical concept of Nut. The same with Hadit. Without the Thelemic comprehension direct interpretation of symbols can be misleading.
Crowley lived long before more recent developments in the understanding of ancient Egyptian culture.

ravenest said:

The symbolism might be better explained as 'Thelemic Neo-Egyptian'. eg. Crowley's Thelemic concept of Nuit is quiet different from the classical concept of Nut. The same with Hadit. Without the Thelemic comprehension direct interpretation of symbols can be misleading.

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I think it's better just to regard Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit, just as Thelemic deities. While they use the symbolism of ancient Egyptian gods, they are not Egyptian per se. That would be very limiting.

The Thelemic Nuit is an infinitely bigger conception than the Nut of the Egyptians. Hadit never existed. And Ra Hoor Khuit as a Solar archetype of the Holy Guardian Angel would make no sense to the ancient Egyptians at all.

The same mistake could be made by declaring that Babalon and the Beast are Christian simply because they appear in the Book of Revelation. They are Thelemic.

Aeon418 said:

I think it's better just to regard Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit, just as Thelemic deities. While they use the symbolism of ancient Egyptian gods, they are not Egyptian per se. That would be very limiting.

The Thelemic Nuit is an infinitely bigger conception than the Nut of the Egyptians. Hadit never existed. And Ra Hoor Khuit as a Solar archetype of the Holy Guardian Angel would make no sense to the ancient Egyptians at all.

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I agree. Crowley says essentially the same thing somewhere. Studying Egyptology for its own sake won't offer insights into Thelema.

The same mistake could be made by declaring that Babalon and the Beast are Christian simply because they appear in the Book of Revelation. They are Thelemic.

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Generally true... except that, in the case of Egypt's part in the 18th century masonic rites and the Egyptological part of the 19th century occult revival, it is a matter of the imperfect knowledge of scholarship being made the basis for esoteric speculation.

In the case of the Babylon(>Babalon)-Beast metaphor, this comes directly from a living branch of the Christian mythos. Thus, Thelema may be regarded as a branch of Christianity. A "tantric" or left-hand Christianity, but a Christianity nonetheless. I think of it as a gnostic Christianity, in which the "Savoir" - Christ - is yourself - salvation is when you recognize your True Will.

Thelema is much larger than that, of course - and many Thelemites are closer to Buddhists philosophically - even the "True Will" is an illusion, the kernel of the Ego.

Ross G Caldwell said:

In the case of the Babylon(>Babalon)-Beast metaphor, this comes directly from a living branch of the Christian mythos. Thus, Thelema may be regarded as a branch of Christianity.

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I'm not sure I would go so far as to call Thelema an off shoot of Christianity, but I understand what you are saying so I have no real objection to the notion. Christianity is certainly antecedent to Thelema.

My objection to Babalon and the Beast being interpreted in solely Christian terms is that the Thelemic theology surrounding them is not only drawn from the Revelation of St.John. Crowley's extensive vision work with the Enochian system has to taken into consideration too.

Going back to Angeles Arrien, this is the sort of stuff that she finds too esoteric and a hindrance to understanding the Thoth Tarot. That's why I find her book to be both misleading and of little value to the serious student of the Thoth Tarot.

Ross G Caldwell said:

Thelema is much larger than that, of course - and many Thelemites are closer to Buddhists philosophically - even the "True Will" is an illusion, the kernel of the Ego.

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I agree with you here. Thelema and Buddhism have a lot in common. Not surprising really when you consider that Buddhism was one of Crowley's main influences. The doctrine of True Will is one of the areas where Thelema differs from Buddhism though.

This Suster book better be good, especially as I am paying hard cash for it, on all your reccommendations!