Is there a card that you never quite 'get' or relate to?

Barleywine

Ruby Jewel said:
Hi Barleywine. I find it interesting that Sagittarius is alloted the Temperance card because not only is Sagittarius fiery and "hot headed", but in astrology is the sign of "hoof and mouth disease." In other words, always putting their foot in their mouth....about as remote from actual temperance as one can get. Just curious what your thoughts on that might be.

My thought is that astrology and tarot are sometimes strange bedfellows!

I've done a complete rethinking of all the Major Arcana astrological correspondences since I'm not entirely satisfied with a few of the Golden Dawn attributions, which don't seem like sound astrological matches. Paul Foster Case went to some Herculean lengths in his attempts to justify them, but I remain unconvinced on a few. Of Temperance, he says "The idea is that vibration is the basis of manifestation, and that all vibration is essentially like sound, the mode of vibration which is particularly associated with the Hierophant." (He previously mentioned that "14" reduces to "5.") "Vibration is fluctuating motion, undulation, pulsation, alteration. It takes wave-forms." He also said "All such work" (experiential proof-testing of hypotheses) "consists in the examination and modification of various modes of vibration." I find this revealing because Temperance is one I don't particularly connect with astrologically, and was thinking of moving Sagittarius - the most philosophical and traditionally religious of signs, also connected with "higher learning" - to the Hierophant, and replacing it with Gemini, the premier sign of duality and its harmonization (I can't really see having two cards to cover the "alchymical marriage" the way Crowley has it, although his reasoning seems legitimate otherwise). I'm not the first to associate Gemini with Temperance, but I had to get there on my own.

Tying this into the legendary tactlessness of Sagittarians - at least the unevolved types - it might be that their excessive bluntness is an exaggeration or deformation of the "wave-form" Case talks about. Call it a "disturbance in the Force." At the heart of it, though, I think it has more to do with the observation that they can't really fathom why anyone wouldn't think they're right.

ETA: By the way, "moderation" and "abstemiousness" are not the original concepts associated with the action of "tempering," which involved altering the properties of something - traditionally metal - to improve its quality for a particular purpose. Temperance as a form of self-denial is something else altogether. I prefer the term "mediation" for Temperance rather than "moderation."

Enlightenment23

Barleywine said:
If you read the write-up I posted for Padma, I think you'll see that we agree on this point.

Oh yeah sure. Hope you didn't think I was debating your view. Only adding to it. Whew, sometimes people (me)learn tarot the hard way (facepalm)

Ruby Jewel

Barleywine said:
My thought is that astrology and tarot are sometimes strange bedfellows! I've done a complete rethinking of all the Major Arcana astrological correspondences since I'm not entirely satisfied with a few of the Golden Dawn attributions, which don't seem like sound astrological matches. Paul Foster Case went to some Herculean lengths in his attempts to justify them, but I remain unconvinced on a few. Of Temperance, he says "The idea is that vibration is the basis of manifestation, and that all vibration is essentially like sound, the mode of vibration which is particularly associated with the Hierophant." (He previously mentioned that "14" reduces to "5.") "Vibration is fluctuating motion, undulation, pulsation, alteration. It takes wave-forms." He also said "All such work" (experiential proof-testing of hypotheses) "consists in the examination and modification of various modes of vibration." I find this revealing because Temperance is one I don't particularly connect with astrologically, and was thinking of moving Sagittarius - the most philosophical and traditionally religious of signs, also connected with "higher learning" - to the Hierophant, and replacing it with Gemini, the premier sign of duality and its harmonization (I can't really see having two cards to cover the "alchymical marriage" the way Crowley has it, although his reasoning seems legitimate otherwise). I'm not the first to associate Gemini with Temperance, but I had to get there on my own.

Tying this into the legendary tactlessness of Sagittarians - at least the unevolved types - it might be that their excessive bluntness is an exaggeration or deformation of the "wave-form" Case talks about. Call it a "disturbance in the Force." At the heart of it, though, I think it has more to do with the observation that they can't really fathom why anyone wouldn't think they're right.

ETA: By the way, "moderation" and "abstemiousness" are not the original concepts associated with the action of "tempering," which involved altering the properties of something - traditionally metal - to improve its quality for a particular purpose. Temperance as a form of self-denial is something else altogether. I prefer the term "mediation" for Temperance rather than "moderation."

My first experience with the tarot back in the 80s was with The Mythic Tarot by Liz Greene. She attributes Sagittarius to the Heirophant, which I feel fits very well. I have a bit of difficulty attributing Gemini (the Magician who becomes the Devil when reversed) to Temperance. I think of Temperance as being the antidote to the Devil's obsessions and addictions....if Mercury is a factor here, I am inclined to prefer Virgo (the Hermit who has, indeed, adjusted). Just my speculative thoughts.

Barleywine

Ruby Jewel said:
My first experience with the tarot back in the 80s was with The Mythic Tarot by Liz Greene. She attributes Sagittarius to the Heirophant, which I feel fits very well. I have a bit of difficulty attributing Gemini (the Magician who becomes the Devil when reversed) to Temperance. I think of Temperance as being the antidote to the Devil's obsessions and addictions....if Mercury is a factor here, I am inclined to prefer Virgo (the Hermit who has, indeed, adjusted). Just my speculative thoughts.

In the Golden Dawn system I use, the Magician isn't Gemini, it's Mercury; the Lovers is Gemini (a correspondence I'm happy with only in that both represent duality). To the extent it even has one - it's such a chameleon -the antithesis of Mercury is probably Jupiter, which rules both of Mercury's opposite signs, Sagittarius and Pisces (I don't use modern rulerships) - it's a case of the "small mind" and the "broad mind" at odds with one another.

Crowley makes much of the relationship between the Lovers and Temperance through their corresponding signs. But in my mind, the Lovers and the Devil have a numerological as well as a visual link: 15 reduces to 6, and both cards have two subordinate figures and an "angel" of sorts.

By switching Sagittarius to the Hierophant, I would move Taurus to the Empress and Venus to the Lovers (since it has to do with valuation and evaluating). Gemini as the sign of coordination would then fit with the nature of Temperance in its "equilibrating" or "reconciliation of opposites" role. I also moved Capricorn to the Hermit because it symbolizes practical wisdom and is appropriately aloof and austere, and Virgo to the World because a "harvest" mentality aligns well with the concepts of "completion" and "success." Saturn then went to the Devil for obvious reasons. I made some other changes that are captured in the rationale I posted here quite a while ago, but I've since tweaked the reasoning.

I find that the usual astrological correspondences don't add much if anything when trying to correlate the cards of the Major Arcana in order to explore their interaction. The nature of the cards themselves is the primary consideration.

iseekserendipity

Temperance and the Star. Although a few of the posts on this thread have given me more to flesh out my perception of Temperance (thank you to all those who contributed to that

)

But I still side eye my deck whenever the Star pops out.

Maru

Barleywine said:
Before I largely dispensed with books as "training wheels" (although I'll still refer to them - and not always just tarot books - occasionally when really stuck and need inspiration), this is pretty much how I worked: a way of "sifting" or "filtering" the mass of information to see what rises to the top for the matter at hand. I see it as applying a different kind of intuition that operates in tandem with the intuitive insights arising from the card images themselves. Since purely visual impressions have to be reduced to words in order to be communicated, I saw this as perfectly natural. I still do it, but now it's almost always an internal associative process.

Same. I use this method for channeling... particularly going through people's posts or something they have written to get a sense of their situation and drawing connections to things I am feeling intuitively... but in general, it's a bigger hassle than needed to go to the list and scan for card meanings when intuition is often more efficient... still occasionally I will use the list when I feel a card is describing a purely energetic quality that is of deep value in the reading... i.e. how this card's energy connects with someone in their life... so I will look through the list and find out it manifests in XYZ ways... this is one reason I have started to view each cards as plain energies and not reading them as simply meanings/descriptors anymore... much more fluid approach imo... It can be done with paragraphs too and when I'm time limited, it's very helpful just to jump straight to the point in a mobile app... and think on the rest later.

mercuryempress

The Hierophant
I'm super drawn to him ( I love him in the Thoth) but I also side eye him..to trust or not to trust

9 Of Cups
I have no idea why I cant stand this card-I don't see anything but unrealistic sometimes self absorbed dreamer
but I have mental blocks on most of the cups cards so it probably totally an issue that I have

iseekserendipity

mercuryempress said:
The Hierophant
I'm super drawn to him ( I love him in the Thoth) but I also side eye him..to trust or not to trust

9 Of Cups
I have no idea why I cant stand this card-I don't see anything but unrealistic sometimes self absorbed dreamer
but I have mental blocks on most of the cups cards so it probably totally an issue that I have

For what it's worth Mercury Empress you're making me realize that I do the equivalent of stereotyping some cards because for me:

Hierophant: Dogma, fitting in, following the flock, conforming... The only reason why this card isn't an issue for me is that I live in a very conforming society and environment so I can really relate this to what I see outside of my door. Also learning in a semi- (or not semi-) formal way. And/or teaching. (Which makes me see why Barleywine associates it with Sagittarius now... Ha ha!) But I can definitely sense my own issues in that I do tend to see the negatives when I see this one! Ha! So I'm adding this one!

9 of cups has had "fat cat" and "cat who ate the canary" stuck in terms of association. Sometimes it really has represented being content, satisfied... Having something fulfilled. Sometimes it has warned me of lazy self satisfaction (when you're busy feeling good and let things "rot" if you will). Sometimes it has just represented smugness.

mercuryempress

iseekserendipity said:
For what it's worth Mercury Empress you're making me realize that I do the equivalent of stereotyping some cards because for me:

Hierophant: Dogma, fitting in, following the flock, conforming... The only reason why this card isn't an issue for me is that I live in a very conforming society and environment so I can really relate this to what I see outside of my door. Also learning in a semi- (or not semi-) formal way. And/or teaching. (Which makes me see why Barleywine associates it with Sagittarius now... Ha ha!) But I can definitely sense my own issues in that I do tend to see the negatives when I see this one! Ha! So I'm adding this one!

9 of cups has had "fat cat" and "cat who ate the canary" stuck in terms of association. Sometimes it really has represented being content, satisfied... Having something fulfilled. Sometimes it has warned me of lazy self satisfaction (when you're busy feeling good and let things "rot" if you will). Sometimes it has just represented smugness.

Thanks iseekserendipity I've seen these details on the Hierophant before but the way you've worded it has given me insight on my "stereoptyping"
I don't really fit in , I not really good with conforming and pretty much live on the "line" of the rules..I've never been in a trouble and I do understand and follow and respect "universal laws" but I do consider myself a "rebel" for a cause
hmmmm thanks for giving me something to chew on

YES I also forgot the word smug..how could I have forgotten that lol.

I guess going from 8 to 9 9 would be emotional fulfillment??? especially from the 8; again I have no idea what that is so maybe that's why it skims me...

Thank you

Ruby Jewel

Barleywine said:
In the Golden Dawn system I use, the Magician isn't Gemini, it's Mercury; the Lovers is Gemini (a correspondence I'm happy with only in that both represent duality). To the extent it even has one - it's such a chameleon -the antithesis of Mercury is probably Jupiter, which rules both of Mercury's opposite signs, Sagittarius and Pisces (I don't use modern rulerships) - it's a case of the "small mind" and the "broad mind" at odds with one another.

Crowley makes much of the relationship between the Lovers and Temperance through their corresponding signs. But in my mind, the Lovers and the Devil have a numerological as well as a visual link: 15 reduces to 6, and both cards have two subordinate figures and an "angel" of sorts.

By switching Sagittarius to the Hierophant, I would move Taurus to the Empress and Venus to the Lovers (since it has to do with valuation and evaluating). Gemini as the sign of coordination would then fit with the nature of Temperance in its "equilibrating" or "reconciliation of opposites" role. I also moved Capricorn to the Hermit because it symbolizes practical wisdom and is appropriately aloof and austere, and Virgo to the World because a "harvest" mentality aligns well with the concepts of "completion" and "success." Saturn then went to the Devil for obvious reasons. I made some other changes that are captured in the rationale I posted here quite a while ago, but I've since tweaked the reasoning.

I find that the usual astrological correspondences don't add much if anything when trying to correlate the cards of the Major Arcana in order to explore their interaction. The nature of the cards themselves is the primary consideration.

In the system I use Gemini is both The Magician/Trickster and The Lovers; Taurus is both the Heirophant and the Empress. Most of the zodiac signs have two of the major arcana attributed to them, and sometimes a major arcana card is given to two zodiac signs. The Magician is given to both Gemini and Virgo as they are both ruled by Mercury. Sagittarius is given both Temperance and the Wheel of Fortune. I can see the Wheel being Jupiter...but not Temperance....One reason I want to place Temperance with Virgo is because it is opposite Pisces, the card of intemperance...ie, alcoholism. As for the Hermit being Capricorn, that would put the Hermit under Saturn....perhaps, because by the time you get to be an old man, Saturn has released you from the block of ice....all the wiser for the years of imprisonment. Yes, I can see it. In seeing Temperance as the "reconciliation of opposites" as in Hegelian dialectics, I presume, I think that is putting a new twist on it that has to seen as a deviation from the original interpretation which predated Hegel. I do not feel comfortable taking such liberties because it becomes much too intellectual. I suppose that would be characteristic of Crowley.

Also, I think where we differ is in your use of planets as an alternative to a zodiac sign...whereas I stay with the zodiac sign...the planets that rule the sign being implicated. All being said, I see that you are not inclined to mix astrology with the tarot. I rather enjoy the additional facets astrology adds to the card, in particular when it comes to considering detriments and exaltations. Also, the tarot draws from astrology when it comes to the elements of fire, air, earth and water and the characteristics that accompany the elements....so tarot and astrology seem to have a natural affinity to me.

Is there a card that you never quite 'get' or relate to?

Barleywine

Enlightenment23

Ruby Jewel

Barleywine

iseekserendipity

Maru

mercuryempress

iseekserendipity

mercuryempress

Ruby Jewel