knights in RWS and THoth

magician

Hello every one
I would like you to notice the simlarities between the knights of RWS and Thoth deck. Though the Knight of THoth is acutally the king ..
would appreciate anyone who looks and compares them.
Thanks
Magician
 

Aeon418

I'm pretty sure that the subject of RWS versus Thoth court cards has been covered before elsewhere.

While Waite's court cards follow the Marseilles pattern (Kings & Queens seated on thrones, Knights mounted on horses, and standing Pages), Crowley's Thoth courts follow the scheme laid down by the Golden Dawn and the formula of Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh.

Waite followed Tarot tradition with his court cards. Crowley's cards express a magical formula without reference to tradition. As such there is no direct relationship between the RWS Knights and the Thoth Knights.
 

Lillie

And also in the Thoth, the Prince becomes the knight, and the knight becomes the prince...
So it's all one and the same.

However, if I am reading a RWS deck but using the Thoth meanings, a knight is a knight. Because of the horses.
And the prince, therefore, becomes the king. cos they are sitting down.

The obvious thing to say after that, is that why would I want to do it, and if I only use the Thoth meanings, why not use the Thoth deck?

Well, usually I do.
But I like to try new things occassionally.
But it never works out.
As you can probably tell.
So I go back to the Thoth.

Oh yeah.

The other obvious thing.
Waite was totally conversant with the yod-he-vau-he, and it's workings and ramifications.
It is the system he would have used.
So, why is this system not given to those that use his deck?
Either he was disguising/concealing it, for reasons of his own.
Or he did not have as much to do with the deck as some people think.
Or there is a third possibility I havn't thought of yet.
 

Aeon418

Lillie said:
The other obvious thing.
Waite was totally conversant with the yod-he-vau-he, and it's workings and ramifications.
It is the system he would have used.
So, why is this system not given to those that use his deck?
Either he was disguising/concealing it, for reasons of his own.
Or he did not have as much to do with the deck as some people think.
Or there is a third possibility I havn't thought of yet.
As far as I'm concerned Waite was a mystery monger who loved to drop little hints that he was in possesion of the "true secrets". It's well known that Waite was in favour of an "old school" approach to occultism. He thought occult secrets were for initiates only. He would have had no objection to releasing a deck for the public containing skewed symbolism. Besides, would Waite have broken his Golden Dawn oaths of secrecy? I don't think so.

Crowley, on the other hand, thought it was his spiritual duty in the Aeon of Horus to destroy the Golden Dawn by publishing it's secrets. He saw occult secrecy as a waste of time. I mean, your unlikely to be burned at the stake for holding heretical spiritual views these days. So why the need for secrecy?
 

Fulgour

Waite = 0.01% Tarot

Aeon418 said:
Besides, would Waite have broken his Golden Dawn oaths of secrecy? I don't think so.
I've never seen any proof that there were "oaths" of secrecy.
It's much more likely with Waite that he did not know or care.
 

Lillie

Aeon418 said:
So why the need for secrecy?

Presumably because some people get some pleasure out of knowing things that they think other people don't know, but would like to know.

Waite seemed to enjoy it immensley.
ll those little hints.

'Of course, the meaning is a lot more complex and interesting that I have written here, But there is no need for me to expain because it is far too complex for the dirty, uneducated, unilluminated scum like you.' (total paraphrase, but it's what I hear in my head when I read his book)

Well. Why mention it then?

Pig.

To be honest, I don't know anything about oaths of secrecy in the GD.
I just took it for granted that they swore they would submit to eagles tearing out their intestines and that sort of thing.
 

Fulgour

Hierophat Amulet?

I wonder if Waite is hiding something here...
 

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Aeon418

Looks like a case of heart-burn or indigestion to me. :laugh:
 

Aeon418

Lillie said:
Presumably because some people get some pleasure out of knowing things that they think other people don't know, but would like to know.
That's Waite alright. That guy loved his little secrets. :rolleyes:
Lillie said:
To be honest, I don't know anything about oaths of secrecy in the GD.
I just took it for granted that they swore they would submit to eagles tearing out their intestines and that sort of thing.
Well, it was something like that. During the Neophyte grade the candidate has to swear to the Lord of the Universe not to reveal anything related to the Golden Dawn or it's secret teachings on penalty of dropping dead on the spot, blasted by a current of Will. :laugh:
 

ravenest

I think you are all missing the point about Mr. Waite here.
he was after all an Initiate in the Highest and Supreme Court of the Grand ....

Oh, that's right, I cant tell you about that ... But there is no need for me to expain because it is far too complex for the dirty, uneducated, unilluminated scum like you.'

Oh. and on the similarity between the two types of Knights.
For me, there is none ... well a bit, about as similar as sharks and goats.