Moongold
I’d like to quote from another thread in consideration of the Marseilles Queens. If we were to begin with the Queens what would we say?
Let me begin by saying that I have no really strong feelings about where a discussion like this should take place. I am a newcomer to the Marseilles and I cannot help but bring my knowledge of other decks to the study of the Marseilles. I have been hovering in some kind of limbo all day about where to begin with this.
Diana has a tread somewhere in this forum about the Reyne de Deniers and she and JMD seem to have made some connections that are similar to ones I’m familiar with in relation to non-Marseilles decks, alluded to in the quotation above.
There are no real rules in tarot (is that really so?) and I guess it’s appropriate to examine the Marseilles Queens using the same same attributes as those given to their distant relatives, post 1912.
If one looks at each of the Marseilles Queens there is nothing bar the symbol of the suit to identify them with the element of the suit. Two immediate questions come to mind. When did the Queens first appear in Tarot decks? When were the elements first attributed to suits? They seem to have been there since the beginning.
And also, when did the correspondences between the Tree of Life and Tarot begin? A lot of information I use in my study of tarot comes from snippets of information from everywhere. I really do understand the value of the History and Iconography Forum, and think it would be good perhaps to have a general history of Post 1900 Tarots. Perhaps I should be mining the threads of this particular forum seeking these answers.
Another question comes to mind. What is the best way to for a newcomer to begin the study of the Marseilles? Is it to pick out those parts of the deck that appeal, as the Queens called to me last night?
Would people knowledgeable in the Marseilles say the attributes given to the Queens by Pollack, Mori & Stockwell and Greer quoted above also work with the Marseilles Queens?
Let’s look at these Queens. I am using the Fournier deck.
The Reyne de Batons is actually a powerful looking Queen. She is sitting in a quite masculine way, knees apart with one sturdy arm resting on one knee whilst the other supports quite a formidable baton slung over a shoulder. Her face is sunburned and her hair floats casually behind her. Her crown sits almost rakishly towards the back of her head. She is pictured against a green background.
She looks as though she has just come back from a foray of some kind where there was a huge requirement for energy and strength Yet her dress is impeccable and gives an impression of immensely contained energy
The Reyne de Deniers bears a strong resemblance to Paul Keating, a former Australian Prime Minister. She has olive skin and a receding chin. Her hair is hidden by a headdress, different from the crowns of the other queens. Is she the wife of a middle eastern trading monarch of some description? Notice the difference in the size of her hands. In one very sturdy hand she holds an immense coin and in the other she holds a scepter of queenly authority. She is pictured against a yellow background. She looks comfortable and assured.
And now we come to the Reyne de Coups . The Reyne has perhaps more classically feminine, fine features than the other Queens. She holds a huge cup in one hand and a kind of thin rod in another – a scepter of some description She is blond also and seems to sit in some kind of canopy, against a back ground of red. Her knees also are apart. This entrances me. It is a much more comfortable way to sit, made modest by the long dresses of the Queens. When did the social convention of women crossing their legs demurely creep into our culture? Clearly these powerful Renaissance women were not constrained by such expectations.
Now the next Queen, the Reyne d’Epee has me smiling. I think of all the threads we have had in the past about the Queen of Swords and the transferences on to her, and can’t see any of this happening with this Queen. She sits almost timidly on her throne (the only throne to be seen with all the Queens), a slightly worried look on her face as she tentatively holds a red sword while one hand is raised before her breast as it to say Don’t worry – I’m not sure how to use this! . She sits against a background of blue.
These are all splendid images. What powerful women I see here! How do they fit in with the other court cards, in the overall context. What is their power alongside their Kings and in their suits?
Moongold
Let me begin by saying that I have no really strong feelings about where a discussion like this should take place. I am a newcomer to the Marseilles and I cannot help but bring my knowledge of other decks to the study of the Marseilles. I have been hovering in some kind of limbo all day about where to begin with this.
Diana has a tread somewhere in this forum about the Reyne de Deniers and she and JMD seem to have made some connections that are similar to ones I’m familiar with in relation to non-Marseilles decks, alluded to in the quotation above.
There are no real rules in tarot (is that really so?) and I guess it’s appropriate to examine the Marseilles Queens using the same same attributes as those given to their distant relatives, post 1912.
If one looks at each of the Marseilles Queens there is nothing bar the symbol of the suit to identify them with the element of the suit. Two immediate questions come to mind. When did the Queens first appear in Tarot decks? When were the elements first attributed to suits? They seem to have been there since the beginning.
And also, when did the correspondences between the Tree of Life and Tarot begin? A lot of information I use in my study of tarot comes from snippets of information from everywhere. I really do understand the value of the History and Iconography Forum, and think it would be good perhaps to have a general history of Post 1900 Tarots. Perhaps I should be mining the threads of this particular forum seeking these answers.
Another question comes to mind. What is the best way to for a newcomer to begin the study of the Marseilles? Is it to pick out those parts of the deck that appeal, as the Queens called to me last night?
Would people knowledgeable in the Marseilles say the attributes given to the Queens by Pollack, Mori & Stockwell and Greer quoted above also work with the Marseilles Queens?
Let’s look at these Queens. I am using the Fournier deck.
The Reyne de Batons is actually a powerful looking Queen. She is sitting in a quite masculine way, knees apart with one sturdy arm resting on one knee whilst the other supports quite a formidable baton slung over a shoulder. Her face is sunburned and her hair floats casually behind her. Her crown sits almost rakishly towards the back of her head. She is pictured against a green background.
She looks as though she has just come back from a foray of some kind where there was a huge requirement for energy and strength Yet her dress is impeccable and gives an impression of immensely contained energy
The Reyne de Deniers bears a strong resemblance to Paul Keating, a former Australian Prime Minister. She has olive skin and a receding chin. Her hair is hidden by a headdress, different from the crowns of the other queens. Is she the wife of a middle eastern trading monarch of some description? Notice the difference in the size of her hands. In one very sturdy hand she holds an immense coin and in the other she holds a scepter of queenly authority. She is pictured against a yellow background. She looks comfortable and assured.
And now we come to the Reyne de Coups . The Reyne has perhaps more classically feminine, fine features than the other Queens. She holds a huge cup in one hand and a kind of thin rod in another – a scepter of some description She is blond also and seems to sit in some kind of canopy, against a back ground of red. Her knees also are apart. This entrances me. It is a much more comfortable way to sit, made modest by the long dresses of the Queens. When did the social convention of women crossing their legs demurely creep into our culture? Clearly these powerful Renaissance women were not constrained by such expectations.
Now the next Queen, the Reyne d’Epee has me smiling. I think of all the threads we have had in the past about the Queen of Swords and the transferences on to her, and can’t see any of this happening with this Queen. She sits almost timidly on her throne (the only throne to be seen with all the Queens), a slightly worried look on her face as she tentatively holds a red sword while one hand is raised before her breast as it to say Don’t worry – I’m not sure how to use this! . She sits against a background of blue.
These are all splendid images. What powerful women I see here! How do they fit in with the other court cards, in the overall context. What is their power alongside their Kings and in their suits?
Moongold
