A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

Debra

He's probably gone mad with pain, Nicky. His arms are crossed and trussed up behind him, bones broken, and those feathers are his fingers. Don't hate me.
 

nicky

No that makes much more sense... I was surprised (happily but still) at the card when I thought it was less somber. Now that you propose the feathers are fingers I am delightfully grossed out! The card would/should be something horrific ...

I would guess that in the mid 1400s the people who used cards would have more experience with how awful a hanging would be; in a societal context in a much less distant past. Thus, cards designed in the 1900s would treat hanging in a different way than those in 1450... newer cards with the esoteric beatific volunteer hanged men are centuries removed from the late middle ages.

or not!

Regardless, I will still suggest people look at things from a different perspective when doing readings, but will be more likely to mention a sacrifice of sorts as well if I ever dare to use the TdM to read :)
 

conversus

Not for the faint of heart, but you might be interested in a bit of not-so-ancient history that might relate to Pendu. The post refers to the sober fate of Mr. Mussolini, his mistress, and his gang, following the end of the WAR. . .

Again, not for everyone. . . You do have to scroll down a bit.

http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/2006/04/oh_the_berluscoglioni.html

CED
 

zan_chan

Hi Nicky,

I've been pondering Le Pendu since I saw you'd posted about him (and also he became an instant favorite when my Noblet first arrived-- See my avatar :laugh: ) and I can't help but wonder if there's not something of a Dostoevsky effect in place. Perhaps when comitting whatever crime got him into this hanged state, he hadn't quite considered the consequences. Maybe he was a selfish murderer, thinking only about his own gains without considering the life he was taking. Maybe he was stealing from the poor, feeling himself more worthy of his acquisitions than those he took them from.

Then he got caught and hanged and now, with plenty of free time on his hands, has gone mad from the guilt of realizing exactly what he's done. Yes, he's a criminal, but he's insane with repentant guilt. Might explain the lazy tongue, wiggly fingers, and, er, joyful disposition a little.

Just a thought. Excuse my butting into your thread :)
 

Debra

In some Marseille-style decks there are coins falling from his pockets, what seems a reference to Judas's betrayal of Jesus. Often there are 12 branches lopped off the trees that he's hanging from.

In reading the hanged man card: It does come up when people are "on hold," but personally I've always had doubts the AE Waite idea that the figure voluntarily seeks enlightenment by hanging himself upside down so the blood would rush to his head. A couple of times when Hanged Man turned up and I've said "the traditional meaning is traitor," the people I was reading for said, "O yes I've been betrayed."
 

conversus

More Thoughts on Le Pendu

As the Papess represents the Community of Faith or even the virtue of fidelity itself, Le Pendu represents the experience and the consequence of infidelity, treachery, betrayal.

Throughout human history, even to this day, Governments—or pseudo-governments—have found it convenient to humiliate, torture, maim, or slaughter human beings in order to punish offenses, edify, terrorize, even entertain subject populations. Le Pendu is a victim of the State, of Justice, of inhumanity. At any moment Le Pendu is one of us!

In consideration of this image, commentators often expound at some length on the treachery and despair of Judas, the humility and piety of St. Peter, or the heroic self-sacrifice of Odin ; but a more apt consideration for us today might be concentrated on a figure like Matthew Shepherd, Mr. Mussolini, or that Nicolae Ceauşescu and his hapless wife.

This image captures what real betrayal looks like, feels like whether we are the betrayed or the betraying.

One aspect of the issue that gets rather less press is the reality that treachery itself might be deeply nuanced and that the material and spiritual consequences of treachery might also be difficult to identify or isolate for both the betrayed and the betraying.

One thing is certain : Betrayal has a very long half-life.

Confronted with this image—caught up out of otherwise normal time, space, and social interactions by our actions or those of others—we have the opportunity to ponder our actions, our sitz-im-leben, to think again.

Suffering is singularly arresting, real, immediate, my own.

Metanoia is always an acceptable alternative to the status quo ante !

This might be a bit of a stretch, but you never know :

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

OR:

Remember : The Patriarch Joseph was cast into a well by his brothers and left to die. Remorseful, they rescued him from the pit but sold him into slavery. An exile and slave in Egypt, he eventually became the Friend of Pharaoh and the Saviour of his People. Where will your story lead you.

If the appearance of Le Pendu is an epiphanic moment for you, follow the light!

CED
 

nicky

zan_chan said:
Hi Nicky,
Just a thought. Excuse my butting into your thread :)

Please join in!!! The more the merrier!!!

conversus said:
This image captures what real betrayal looks like, feels like whether we are the betrayed or the betraying.

Confronted with this image—caught up out of otherwise normal time, space, and social interactions by our actions or those of others—we have the opportunity to ponder our actions, our sitz-im-leben, to think again.

Suffering is singularly arresting, real, immediate, my own.

CED

This is wonderful. It would add much to possibilities when doing a reading. I am more qualified to point this out (thanks Debra) now that I see he is not happy (no smiling RWS) but agonized.

Debra said:
In reading the hanged man card: It does come up when people are "on hold," but personally I've always had doubts the AE Waite idea that the figure voluntarily seeks enlightenment by hanging himself upside down so the blood would rush to his head. A couple of times when Hanged Man turned up and I've said "the traditional meaning is traitor," the people I was reading for said, "O yes I've been betrayed."

I have offered up the smiling serene look on the WS card to people who seem horrified at the image and have offered the looking at things in a different way ...it works well at parties :)

In this deck, the idea of betrayal ...either to someone or from someone seems much more fitting .

le pendu mocked me for my voluntary sacrifice .. and he is probably right. Who would volunteer for this?


xoxox everyone!
 

sapienza

conversus said:
Where will your story lead you.

If the appearance of Le Pendu is an epiphanic moment for you, follow the light!

I love this. Thank you. :)
 

nicky

LaMort

We have a skeleton with skin...love this guy. I'm pretty sure he has on hot pants as well. The King's head and the woman's head both look to the right ... I wonder who or what they are looking for... it is too late at this point to expect help. The way some of the plants are growing they could almost be other buried kings who are now blooming into vegetative life.. the leaves look quite similar to the crown on our dead king.

I assume at the time these cards were created they knew more about anatomy than this card reflects...so why so many vertebrae? Interesting elbow as well...

In summary, I like this card...it is way less scary then some death cards :)