The Visconti - and the Marseilles

Sophie

Moongold said:
If one looks at myths and legends, there are so many variations of the same. What were the originals? What was the essence? Will we ever know?

Are essence and origin the same? Essence of rose, and the many roses? Was there ever one original rose? But there is an essence of rose (I know, it goes on my face every morning ;))
 

Sophie

Ross, I can't possibly imagine how you got your dry reputation. You even made a machinist lathe sound romantic (and I don't even know what a machinist lathe is! - but I don't need to. I just need to hear you say you tend her).

I had an experience a few days ago. Here, on this forum, doing an exercise. It's not nearly as eloquent as you, Ross, but it was close in quality - I was reading for someone who was V- Le Pape. I was L'Amoureux. It's a role I am used to, the fantasist, the eternal femme-enfant who loves and loses and has trouble choosing. And suddenly I felt Le Pape speaking to me. I've had trouble with him all my tarot-reading life, whether he's called Pope or Hierophant. What's this dusty old greybeard in a mitre got for me, I thought? I'm not a Catholic, so Le Pape is remote, Italian, ritualistic...

But he spoke. A firm voice. What, I cannot remember, but it was strong and gentle. He told me to go along with him, because I had things to learn and he was going to teach me. I don't like authority, so I bristled, but there was no refusing that compelling voice, it was so - tender.

So there I am now, on the road. Le Pape? perhaps you would call him my animus, Ross.

Darla, you started this thread. I'm not sure you realised what you were going to unleash...
 

Moongold

Helvetica said:
Are essence and origin the same? Essence of rose, and the many roses? Was there ever one original rose? But there is an essence of rose (I know, it goes on my face every morning ;))

:) No, they are not the same.

Good point. And perhaps we are yet to discover the essence of Tarot .... or some of us are still lagging :D
 

rachelcat

Definitions

ur-: 1 : original : primitive <ur-form>
2 : original version of <urtext>
3 : prototypical : ARCH- <ur-anticommunist>

essence: 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2 : something that exists : ENTITY
3 a (1) : a volatile substance or constituent (as of perfume) (2) : a constituent or derivative possessing the special qualities (as of a plant or drug) in concentrated form; also : a preparation of such an essence or a synthetic substitute b : ODOR, PERFUME
4 : one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance as if in concentrated form <she was the essence of punctuality>
 

Diana

Ross G Caldwell said:
And this must be why the early scientists called the World Soul a woman, because they were falling in love with nature, and finally not imposing rules on her but learning her ways through patient observation and unconditional love of it for itself, tender love, and it became to them a woman, the spirit of the world, and this dream made its way into the engravings and paintings of the scientific awakening.

And finally, (but it has been quick) I understand a little, although I am not a poet, of the beloved of the sufis, the troubadors, chivalry and the Fidèles d’Amour like Dante, who so rigorously studied and observed the rules of their art, that the art itself became a woman to them, their soul came out, through their patient absorption in the contemplation and performance of their craft. And I am not a musician, but it must be the same with an instrument – now I see !

This reminded me of what Kris Hadar said in this thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=16727&highlight=%E2me

"Et que faisait le Troubadour ? Il chantait la Dame... il chantait le Monde... car après à connaître sa Dame... c'était découvrir son ÂME!"

Which I translated as:

And what did the Troubador do ? He sang of the Lady – he sang of the World…because when he had discovered his Lady…he discovered his SOUL! (Note by translator: This is a word-play (language of the birds) impossible to translate, i.e. “Dame” and “Ame” ).

I recommend everyone to read the whole post in the thread mentioned.

Rachelcat: Thank you for those definitions. And Darla: Thank you for your quest(ion).
 

Rusty Neon

The card game of tarot in France today

Helvetica said:
They can also use the Tarot de Marseille major arcana "atouts" - http://www.bric-a-brac.org/tarot/cartes.php

The pips are like ordinary playing cards, plus four.
A friend of mine taught me years ago, she used the Tarot de Marseille atouts. But they have as many types of decks as tarot readers have! http://maurice.doury.free.fr/Liste des jeux.htm

I'm not much of a card player, so I didn't keep it up.
It's a very dynamic game, btw.

Nothing in either of those two links shows that any portion of the Tarot de Marseille deck is used for the playing of the card game of tarot in France today.

Various varieties of tarot gaming decks are generally used for the playing of tarot in France today, such as the various tarot gaming decks illustrated at the second link. (That second link also shows the TdM and some other esoteric tarots but that doesn't show that they're using for the playing of the card game of tarot in France today.)

The first link gives a historical perspective of the TdM major arcana that the non-esoteric major arcana 1 to 22 in tarot gaming decks replace. It doesn't say that TdM major arcana are generally used for the playing of the card game of tarot in France today. However, there is nothing to stop anyone (including you or your friend) from using TdM decks to play the tarot card game. :)
 

Sophie

My friend doesn't read the tarot, she only plays the game. She taught me with Marseille atouts which she used exclusively to play.

But it wasn't in France, you are right so far - it was in the Congo.
 

Rusty Neon

ihcoyc said:
When you look at surviving decks of Tarots and Tarot-like playing cards, you see greater graphic variety, not less. Not only the Visconti, but you also have graphical variations in the printed cards like the Tarots of Paris and the Belgian and Besancon traditions.

What you had was a winnowing of early variety resulting in a few surviving forms, that became more stylized rather than less so over time.

Well said. Thanks, ihcoyc.

The mere fact that variety diminished and the various stylized patterns of Marseilles decks are among the few surviving forms of tarot decks doesn't automatically make the Marseilles the essence of the Tarot. The various patterns of the Tarot de Marseille (e.g., Noblet, Conver, Dodal, etc.) are only a subset of the variety of tarot expressions that breathed during the era in which those various Marseilles patterns developed. Experiencing the variety among the various historical decks - understanding and appreciating their constrasts and their similarities - can lead us to gain a more well-rounded picture of the essence of the Tarot than by having regard to just Marseilles decks.

As well, the Tarot canon isn't necessarily closed: Thoughtfully-developed modern tarot decks can - if we're open to it - give us new and further insights into the essence of the Tarot.
 

Shalott

Ooooooooooooooooooooo

OK, first of all, it was probably me that took this thread down the wrong path...I thought I understood the term "Ur" but I totally didn't, I thought it meant "First, original, prototypical," now I see I've not completely understood many posts around here which use the term! :|

Well, I'll take a stab at it now that I (hope) I have a better understanding: consistency. I know there are ppl who believe the meanings are either arbitrary or added later, but if the colors meant what we think they meant in the Middle Ages, and the numbers meant what we think they meant in the Middle Ages, then those images would have carried the same meanings when they were first put to paper. The colors in the images back up the number, the botanical images back up the former, the numbers are consistent throughout not only the pips but the majors as well. One can see why everything comes together using these layers.

This is a taste of that essence of Tarot, to me. It's all one big whole. Like Mozart's music, it's perfect. Add or take away the tiniest dot and wouldn't be perfect.
 

Rusty Neon

Shalott said:
This is a taste of that essence of Tarot, to me. It's all one big whole. Like Mozart's music, it's perfect. Add or take away the tiniest dot and wouldn't be perfect.

There is not just one pattern of Tarot de Marseille, but several (e.g., Dodal, Noblet, Conver, etc.). While on the whole there are shared features between those patterns, there are differences too. These differences are more than just a few "dots".