Tarot de Paris (17th Century)

Huck

coredil said:
Hello Huck, could you tell where do these pictures come from?
The BN stamp is not there and they look like a restored version of the deck.
I was not aware of the existence of such a deck!

Best regards

I remember dark (but might err), that I've read: "Grimaud made a reprint in the 70's". Sure, it's a reprint.
I don't know of another. The collector, Alexander from Russia, also seems to know not.

Firemaiden, your comments are in the web, slightly modified.

http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/d02258/
 

roppo

hi, Huck and coredil,

I suppose the images on Trionfi.com are from Henry Rene D'Allemagne's "Les Cartes a Jouer du XIV au XX Siecle"(1906). The same images we can see in "Antique Playing Cards" (Dover, New York, 1996) which is the selection of images from D'Allemagne's work.

wish this might be a bit help to you.
 

coredil

Thanks for your answer Huck.
Though it makes me wonder a lot more.
An edition in the 70?
I thought the Grimaud edition was from 1985.
Is it an other one?

@ roppo
Thanks a lot for your remark.
Do you have one of the books you mention?
If yes, are the pictures the same as on Trionfi?

As soon as I receive the Tarot de Paris, I will try to carefully compare the pictures.
I must say I am very intrigued.

Best regards
 

roppo

coredil said:
@ roppo
Thanks a lot for your remark.
Do you have one of the books you mention?
If yes, are the pictures the same as on Trionfi?
I have a Dover edition. Its 25p shows six images of Tarot de Paris, I, VII, IX. VIII, XVII. and XVIII. The pictures are the same as on Trionfi.
 

Huck

coredil said:
Thanks for your answer Huck.
Though it makes me wonder a lot more.
An edition in the 70?
I thought the Grimaud edition was from 1985.
Is it an other one?

As mentioned, my rememberance is dark in this matter. Pehaps 70ies, perhaps 80ies.

:) Actually an electronic picture is easily forged to everything one desires. It's a matter of some free time.

From the historical point of view I'm interested to know, how the pictures developed. Remakes might be even better and more near to the original than the surviving original itself occasionally.

We try in the moment ...

http://trionfi.com/

... the falconer. The original doesn't exist (or nobody knows its place). Kaplan has (only) some photos, which he published at Kaplan I, p. 99.
I don't know, why he stayed "so small" with them.

Likely one of the few "very important" Tarot cards.
 

coredil

Now I see!

Huck said:
:) Actually an electronic picture is easily forged to everything one desires. It's a matter of some free time.
Oh! Now I understand!
I guess I am still quite naive :)

Huck said:
From the historical point of view I'm interested to know, how the pictures developed. Remakes might be even better and more near to the original than the surviving original itself occasionally.
I must say I find the pictures from the Tarot de Paris on Trionfi really very beautiful.

Thanks again for your explanations.

Best regards
 

coredil

roppo said:
I have a Dover edition. Its 25p shows six images of Tarot de Paris, I, VII, IX. VIII, XVII. and XVIII. The pictures are the same as on Trionfi.

I first saw Hucks answer!
Your answer + Hucks explanations makes all things clear to me now :)

Thanks again
 

Cerulean

Is there any other tarot this old where the chariot is drawn by birds?

I'm not certain if this question is still relevant, but the Ferarrese attribution of Venus in a float pulled by swans is on the astrological murals of the Schifanioa Palace, the then-hunting lodge of Duke Borso, circa 1480.

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/c/cossa/schifano/2april/

And the so-called Mantegna Tarocchi, with prototypical tarocchi like attributions--with Ferarra or Urbino links--has Venus with 'ducks' as well as watery attributes - scroll down to the heavenly spheres:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/mantegna.html

Anyway, that above can be 'dated' usually between 1465-1470's during Borso's time in Ferarra by those who like to suggest that the art examples of the Schifanioa Palace and so-called Mantegna cards are contemporaries of each other. Not known for certain, but just fyi.

Best regards,

Cerulean
 

Huck

The general truth about the development of triumphal processions and the developing iconography to them in Italy ... for instance this helmet-winged Venus ... is, that the Italian had not too much money between 1425 - 1450 cause the Lombard wars.
So triumphal processions were rare ... exeptions were

1423 Alfonso of Aragon (Naples)
1425 Filippo Visconti (Milan)
1441 great marriage (Francesco Sforza /Bianca Maria Visconti)
1443 Alfonso of Aragon (Naples)

Things change with 1449/1450, Sforza occupied Milan

Late 1449: Milan (Ambrosian republic) has a Trionfo, cause they believe in peace with Venice - soon they're cheated
March 1450: Sforza has a Trionfo, cause he'd occupied Milan
1450 Jubilee-year: Lots of festivities
1451/1452 Emperor visit: Lots of festivities
1452: Borso becomes duke (Ferrara)
1453: Another Trionfo in Milan.

Generally: Pope Nicolas spends money for buildings in Rome. The jubilee year brought a lot of money to Italy.

1454: Peace of Lodi ... the economy has the chance to recover, wars are not completely over, but generally there is more or less peace till 1494/1500 the French occupations
1460 - 70: the Trionfo culture develops, accompanied by new developments with carnival - triumphal festivities increase in number
1470-1476: the "early" heigth of triumphal festivities ... the reigning heads are young in this time (Galeazzo Maria and Medici brothers) ... young reigning heads often means "festivities"
1475 Another Jubilee year
1476/78: murder in Milan (Galeazzo Maria) and Florence (Giuliano de Medici)

The style of the Venus in firemaidens source seems to have been developed from the festival book to the marriage of Constanzo Sforza and Camilla d'Aragon 1475 (theme Trionfo della Fama) ... I could imagine, it's a direct copy.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/c-humanism/images/human19.jpg

The marriage and show was 1475, but the book developed later (ca. 1479). It's fairly a "Tarot" or better a "Trionfi" composition, not with 22 elements, but some more (like Minchiate, actually it's a simple truth, that one wasn't totally fixed on 22 in this early time).
Well, likely the motifs of this book didn't found the opportunity to become playing cards - but perhaps there existed one deck or some more, this is not impossible ....

Here is the not coloured and not pictured version of thhe book:

http://special-1.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/BookDetails.aspx?strFest=0171
 

Cerulean

Actually....closer correction to my earlier statement

1. Borso d'Este, 1413-71, who received the title duke of Modena and Reggio from Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III in 1452 and that of duke of Ferrara from Pope Paul II in 1471.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/E/Este-fam.asp

Just in case you see a variation, the double dating is because not always did both the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope agree to the regional grants for ducal candidates--I think the Papal addition added more favor, legitimacy and recognition, which Borso craved...both the Pope and Borso died a few months after the papal recognition, very old men.

Cerulean