"House of God" = Meteorites?

kwaw

baba-prague said:
Here is a picture of the Vandenborre. I know it isn't quite a Marseille but I hope it's relevant to the discussion. You'll see that the objects in the sky are drawn so as to be distinctly different on each card (the difference between the red objects on the Foudre and Soleil cards is btw even more obvious when you see them in reality).

http://www.magic-realist.com/BLOG/Vandenborre.jpg

Off topic... but Vandenborre [c.1770] also of historical interest in being one of those decks showing lependu other side up [contradicting viewpoints of some that such originate with de Gebelin? 1781? Not new, common to some Belgium pattern I think, possibly printers error, but as I have pointed out before there is an example in Kaplan dated prior to Gebelin and actually entitled 'prudence' [a printing or dating error in Kaplan?], as per second post from bottom on page here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=51730&page=3&pp=678779

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

Oh I have been running around in circles trying to get my thoughts in order.

Since the "magical" stone was made a pillar of the temple, the temple actually became a single thing with the stone. The Tower (or temple) and the Meteorite are (made to be) the same thing.
Is it possible that the difference between "the actual tower itself" and the meteorite is not so deep?

Hi Marco, that was an interesting post thank you. I realise the Kaaba and Baitullah are different things as also Bethel. All three were very symbolic of the near Middle East. I think the Mamluks looked upon the square towers of the Crusaders as the same thing in a way. I am interested as to why the tower had a Crown upon it as in the Conver.
Baba's posted cards are fascinating and I agree I see a progression from the lights in the sky too.
I also did not understand the biblical Bethel as the tower made of the meteorites. I thought the Baitullahs had the black stone on the outside in the Eastern corner.
The animals I think are goats not sheep, and if you are one who takes this order Ayin/The Tower/Capricorn- that would fit with the Vandenborre that Baba posted.
I have posted a picture of a Kaaba- not a Baitullah. It is interesting that they were originally Zoroastrian Fire Temples- their symbols of purity and wisdom. So the lightening card looks like the flames of Fire to me. The billard balls are a way different to them. I am not sure at all they represent meteorites. ~Rosanne
 

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baba-prague

Thanks Roseanne - that certainly does look more like a tower. But yes, as you say, what about the crown at the top?

The tapestry of Angers, which is an apocalyptic sequence, shows the destruction of Babylon, and a tower falling (actually hit by a demon falling from the sky) as part of that. But it certainly isn't an isolated tower, it's in the midst of a city. So I'm not sure that it's relevant.

Also possibly not of relevance (but someone here may be able to make more of it than I can) here is the "man standing under a tree with sheep or goats" image that I was talking about earlier. It's from the facade of a house in Old Town Square here. On the face of it, it is somewhat similar to the Jacques Vieville image. It's also part of a complex series (dating from 1600 by the way) much of which is unfortunately quite badly damaged now. There is no way of telling whether or not there were originally objects in the sky in this image - the man does seem to be gazing up at something, but he is also obviously relaxed looking. He is believed (though the subjects of these sgraffitos are debated) to be Jonah waiting for the destruction of Nineveh (which God then decided to cancel - much to Jonah's annoyance). However, the figures on this house are very hard to interpret - although the assumption that this is Jonah is fairly well backed up by the fact that the immediate former image (it's a sequence of three) is undoubtedly Jonah being spat out of the whale.

Anyway, this may all be a red herring, but I've often thought that if we only had the whole set of images from this house (The House of the Minute) we'd probably find some interesting correlations between some of them and some of the tarot imagery. Certainly Strength, Justice and possibly Prudence are there. There is also a possible Chariot. But perhaps this is not the thread to go into this in any more depth.
 

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ArcanoMáximo

Manna from Heaven

I remember a thread where we was discussing about where was God if being in some Tarot Card.
There i said that the Tower is where i can see G@d it self, and i said some things about that balls, but what i really think is that they are what the Bible says in Exodus 16:31

" The people of Israel called the food manna. It was like a small white seed, and tasted like thin cakes made with honey"

and that's why to me the true name of this card should be "The Exodus", but The House God sounds good to me too, because i feel G@d as freedom and refuge, just like in the Moises' history.
From there i can think what is that crown(Egypt?)and that those persons are not falling down but being free, even when they are not good at all, they have food falling down from heaven.
But is a very personal view. I just only have the intuition of this, i have not more bases or investigations to base my point.
Sorry!
 

DoctorArcanus

Rosanne said:
Baba's posted cards are fascinating and I agree I see a progression from the lights in the sky too.
I also did not understand the biblical Bethel as the tower made of the meteorites. I thought the Baitullahs had the black stone on the outside in the Eastern corner.

The Vandenborre is excellent: one more deck to study, for me! :)
I think also the Jonah image proposed by Baba-Prague is relevant (its graphical closeness with Vieville is impressive).

About Bethel and Jacob (Book of Genesis) the analogy with meteorites is not "written" there. Still the Bible says that Jacob finds a stone that he uses as a pillow and gives him a very strange dream he is scared of (just the same that Elven experienced with her meteorite). Jacob decides to make this "magical" stone a pillar of a new temple: "And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house".

I think here there is some pre-monotheistic belief at work. Something that survived also in the Islamic religion.

Elven: possibly meteorites don't like being taken around. You could consider using yours as a corner-stone for a new temple of Iluvatar....

Marco
 

baba-prague

DoctorArcanus said:
The Vandenborre is excellent: one more deck to study, for me! :)
I think also the Jonah image proposed by Baba-Prague is relevant (its graphical closeness with Vieville is impressive).

It is interesting isn't it. However, I've just turned to another book here and it says firmly that this is The Prodigal Son who is grazing pigs. As I say, there are a number of opinions on just what this particular panel represents. It needs some serious work - it's a shame that there isn't a better theory (not that I've ever found anyway) of what exactly is being shown on these House of the Minute images.
 

Elven

marco said:
Elven: possibly meteorites don't like being taken around. You could consider using yours as a corner-stone for a new temple of Iluvatar....

Hmmm.... I have two nice BIG lanterns to go on either side of the meteorite too :p LOL!!

ArcanoMaximo said:
" The people of Israel called the food manna. It was like a small white seed, and tasted like thin cakes made with honey"

Hi ArcanoMaximo :) I think the seed though was thought to be Mustard seeds.



Back to the thread ...
I was interested that Baba-Prague mentioned the Bay Tree - because this tree - being the Laurel tree is very ancient, and although most lore of the tree comes from Greek Mythology or Roman history - it has it roots further back still.
But there is an interesting corelation - that the Leaves of the Laurel were to protect one from Witchcraft, the Devil and being struck by Lightning.
Also that it has much reverance as a leaf connected to muses, dreams, prophesies and omens.

So we have quite a few 'omen' type symbols in the card - assuming that the balls are meteorites falling from the sky - quite a complex situation which leads me to become more aware of the 'person' depicted in the card - and to his relevance.
(on another note - It reminded me of the comet in that Painting of the last Supper)

Why so many symbols depicting omens then in one card - that being that the falling sky is a meteorite? Is that why the sheep are under these trees the too - so they would be protected? Or has that aspect been sorted? Is it the protection of the prophesy of the coming of the Lamb? .. or am I being outrageous and off track?

There are quite an array of different types of meteorites as well - some containing different base qualities - I wonder what the large ancient meterorite in
astrology.com said:
The bay tree is a particularly good example of a tree that has accumulated a rich variety of customs and folklore through the centuries. It is customary to fête great artists and heroes by placing a wreath of laurel on their heads - a practice that has continued from Roman times to the present day. Why is it important to use the laurel and not some other tree? Additionally, it is also said in folklore that to plant a bay tree next to the house brings good luck, while to cut one down brings misfortune. How have these ideas become associated with the tree?....

Returning to the bay tree, its connection to the Sun is traceable to classical times where the tree was sacred to Apollo, the solar deity of the Roman pantheon.3 The solar nature of the tree is apparent from the leaves, for when a good sunlight illuminates them, they shine with a golden lustre. Gold is the colour and metal traditionally connected to the sun. Thus, the tree was visualized as embodying this solar virtue.

Additionally the tree is evergreen, so these golden-green leaves, which last the year round, symbolically reflect the eternal light of the sun. It is known in the ancient temple dedicated to Apollo in Delphi, that the high priestesses or pythia started their ceremonies by burning bay leaves as incense.4 When the bay leaves were burnt, the released Solar virtue invoked the presence of the god Apollo. Once his presence was felt the pythia went into a trance, communicating inspired messages to all that had come to the temple to inquire of the oracle. Furthermore it was noted that the principal pythia actually ate the bay leaves and was specifically fumigated before officiating at the ceremony.

The Sun also traditionally symbolizes the soul. Just as the planets revolve around the Sun, so too the soul can be visualized as the inner sun, the light at the centre of one's being. The Sun therefore symbolizes the inner unfoldment and illumination that distinguishes great men and women from the general populace. This inner illumination gives depth of vision to an artist or poet, whose work outshines their contemporaries. The same Inner Light dispels the darkness of fear and allows the hero to act courageously achieving goals that lesser mortals would shun. Indeed, the word courage is derived from the Latin cor, cordis meaning heart, the part of the body in medieval physiology that was ruled by the sun.

just adding ... Bay Laurel Leaves themselves are very sharp on the edges and cut - their shape is describes as lanceolate - and pointed at both ends.

Lore also suggests they were used to write wishes on, and used to induce prophetic dreams by putting them under pillows.

Withering or dying Laurel Trees were a bad omen, usually pertaining to disaster.

Blessings
Elven x
 

DoctorArcanus

Elven said:
Lore also suggests they were used to write wishes on, and used to induce prophetic dreams by putting them under pillows.

Aeneas talking to the Sybil:

Virgil - Aeneid - Book VI

But O! commit not thy prophetic mind
To flitting leaves, the sport of ev'ry wind,
Lest they disperse in air our empty fate;
Write not, but, what the pow'rs ordain, relate.
 

aja

I really don't have time right now to do any intensive research, but I'll throw this out there......
The first thing that I thought of when the discussion of metorites/stones and worship was that of the Cybele legend. see; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele

Combine that with the Attis legend (sacrifice, tree, returning from the dead) and the mysteries associated with her worship.
http://www.carnaval.com/cybele/
 

Rosanne

http://www.russianbooks.org/montsegur/montsegur3.htm

Here is a site that might be interesting. Where Montsegur was was called Roc de la tour or Tower Rock.
The Catholics had a Catapult called a Trebuchet. They fired round stone missiles starting at 35 kgs and for the finally assult they were 80 kgs. It would also explain the Crown on the Tower and the anti (underground) Catholic sentiment that sometimes appears in Tarot.
There is still a part of me that likes the meteorite aspect of this, but I can't quite get there with it. ~Rosanne