Le Diable - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

TenOfSwords

Opinion/notion:
*It's not a penis, but a Fig-leaf in reference to the fall of Eve and original sin.

*Belly-mouth: Eating her children instead of giving birth to them (mediterrainian folk myth about Lilith)

*Holding the blade of the sword of justice. Twarting justice.

*Pulling the souls of sinners with her to hell, not minions.

*Tongue out in reference to the last supper and betrayal of jesus (See 12-hanged man- 12th apostle Judas Iscariot also has tongue out)
 

le pendu

Two very different images, but important for the broader understanding of the iconography. The Jacques Vieville tarot was created around the same time as the Jean Noblet, circa 1650. In many ways it is similar to a TdM, but several of the later cards seem to relate to a different source, the Devil is one of them.

The Cary Sheet is an uncut sheet of cards probably dated to around 1500. Some of the cards on the Cary Sheet indicate TdM imagery in their earliest extant form.

vieville_XV.jpg
<-- Vieville | Cary Sheet -->
cary_sheet_XV.jpg

The Vieville has the tongue, and maybe even fire coming out of the Devil's mouth? The faces are clearly seen on the stomach and knees, and either the shoulder or breast. The wings are bat wings, similar to the Conver style, but also have circles on them, perhaps like the Noblet. Personally, I just love this devil. He's scary, and mobile, and I love his claws!! I imagine him going "Grrrr... grrrr", whereas the TdM versions seem like they would want to discuss philosophy!

The Cary Sheet is such an enigma. In this thread we discuss it in general:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=62044
And this thread specifically discussing the Cary Sheet Devil:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=40900

The Cary Sheet Devil is interesting because of the basket on his back, the way he has a human on the end of his trident, his horns, and just the overall feel of the card. I think it's interesting to note that on the Cary Sheet the devil doesn't seem to be sticking out his tongue, but on the Krampus cards discussed on the second link above, it is a defining feature of Krampus.
 

Minervasaltar

Thanks for the scan, Le Pendu! :)

TenOfSwords said:
*Belly-mouth: Eating her children instead of giving birth to them (mediterrainian folk myth about Lilith)

I love that notion. I didn't know that yet.

*Pulling the souls of sinners with her to hell, not minions.

Hmmm, but they seem to kinda not mind at all and even enjoy the situation. While I dó think that the devil refers to what (christian) society considered sinfull behaviour, I also think that the tarot is giving the message that many sinfull things are healthy and necessary.
 

TenOfSwords

Minervasaltar said:
Hmmm, but they seem to kinda not mind at all and even enjoy the situation. While I dó think that the devil refers to what (christian) society considered sinfull behaviour, I also think that the tarot is giving the message that many sinfull things are healthy and necessary.

The view i presented comes from the passion/mystery plays of the era where the devil is 'acted out' as actually executing the sinner and literaly dragging the soul with him/her down to hell in a rope... I would have loved to see one of them lol.

On the topic of sin, then what is considered sinful now wouldn't necessarily be considered sinful in that era... Try looking up 'feast of fools' or 'feast of the ass'...

The folk-myth reference I've only found once and I can't remember where it was (in connection with evil eye of lilith i think) so if anyone knows more about it I'd love to know.
 

le pendu

Here's two cards to add to the general discussion. I don't find either compelling in themselves, but worth seeing for discussion.

Both are from Schweizer Spielkarten 2, (which is discussed here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=41980 )

muller_XV.jpg
<-- Muller | Rochias -->
rochias_XV.jpg

The first is an image from around 1840. A very late version of the Devil. It does show the double graple.

The second is much more mysterious. It is unique as far as I know of. The deck is listed in the catalog as a TdM, by "Jacques Rochias fils", 1782. The deck is overwhelmingly typical TdM II style, very much like the Conver. Two cards that differ are XIII, where it is actually named "La Mort" and the title is added into some open space in the upper half; and this card, where the Devil is shown with very interesting imagery!

There are so many things to notice here! The image looks very much like the Conver.. but there are some very striking differences!

Where to start?

Notice the wings.. they are Conver, TdMII style wings, but they have eyes on them. This immediatly makes me think of the Noblet with the red circles. Do the circles on the Noblet indicate eyes on the wings???

Look at what is held in the Devil's hand.. instead of a staff with either a torch or a pitchfork, here is it a bundle of snakes?

The penis on the devil seems to be represented, but how odd do those legs look?

There are eyes on the knees.

The stomach has an eye on it as well.. so maybe this cardmaker is just a bit "eye-crazy"?

Perhaps the most astonishing thing about this image is the second face on the top of the card. What he heck is that????
 

le pendu

Just for the fun of it... my desktop after scanning all these images!
 

prudence

le pendu said:
Just for the fun of it... my desktop after scanning all these images!
Love that!

I am wondering if the face on top of the Devil's head in the Rochias might be his mask that is pushed up off of his face?

The Muller is a very striking image. Much more sinster looking than the others.
 

le pendu

prudence said:
Love that!

I am wondering if the face on top of the Devil's head in the Rochias might be his mask that is pushed up off of his face?

The Muller is a very striking image. Much more sinster looking than the others.

The Muller really is fun. In a way it's like looking at the scene from the point of view of one of the minions!

I love the way the Devil holds out his hand, reminds me of a hypnotist. It's graphically just a wonderful image.
 

le pendu

TenOfSwords said:
Opinion/notion:
*It's not a penis, but a Fig-leaf in reference to the fall of Eve and original sin.

*Belly-mouth: Eating her children instead of giving birth to them (mediterrainian folk myth about Lilith)

*Holding the blade of the sword of justice. Twarting justice.

*Pulling the souls of sinners with her to hell, not minions.

*Tongue out in reference to the last supper and betrayal of jesus (See 12-hanged man- 12th apostle Judas Iscariot also has tongue out)

Hi TenOfSwords,

You might find this interesting, the connection with Lilith is discussed a bit in this thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69709
 

Debra

Very interesting thread; many thanks to all who contribute here.

I actually assume that artists' images evolve for idiosyncratic reasons--they just like the way another eye might look there, or they have a slip of the pen or knife, or red seems right, etc.

I've got several mandala coloring books, and, as with some of those "color your own" tarot decks, they have recommended colors for some of the images--but I can say "screw it, I'm the one holding the crayons here." So with the evolution of these devil images, I don't know that we must find a rational "reason" for every change of line.

Still waiting for the Vieville, which is nearly killing me....Debra