Zan and BC's Excellent Thoth Adventure: In the beginning....

zan_chan

Bat Chicken said:
Have we a reliable astrology resource? Do we need it? I honestly have nothing on that or kabalah. There is Adam McLean's site for alchemy...

I found a couple of websites this afternoon with astrology basics. I'm really not quite sure how to go about that. QBLH there seems to be more resources for. I have Rachel Pollack's book, The Kabbala Tree, but it doesn't seem terribly helpful. I'm hoping to understand it via Duquette as best I can before going much deeper...
 

Bat Chicken

Great! So then the rest of my day is reading more of Nicky's thread, the thread on Blake and Crowley and starting in on the Fool.

Anubis... Not helpful! LOL! :)
 

gregory

Ask Scion for a good astrology resource..... And decans, too; his pdf is brilliant (though aimed at Liber T)
 

Maskelyne

zan_chan said:
So is the consensus that the trimmed large makes the best reading deck? I know I was very happy to be free of the titles/keywords after I had trimmed my Haindl, but they somehow seem more vital on the Thoth. No?

Do we really think it can be appropriate to read with Thoth before getting into the research/study bit? If I wanted to join a reading exchange going by the images alone, I wouldn't be horrifically offending the hardcore Thothers? It seems so...inauthentic...
My experience in trimming the Thoth was that it really brings the images to life to free them of words, symbols and borders. The pips are expressive enough that you don't need the keywords to see what's going on. A keyword provides the illusion that you know what the card means. For me, it tends to short-circuit the process of extracting meaning from the image, so the cards seem deeper and more meaningful without them.

As for the astrological and qabalistic glyphs and associated meanings, I see those as parallel to the image. The cards encapsulate Crowley's knowledge of Qabalah and magick, but these occult systems are just other ways of encoding meaning, they are not meaning in and of themselves. I'm just a few months into studying these cards and am starting with their visual aspect, so I'd be quite interested to see what you can come up with reading the images alone.
 

Bat Chicken

Maskelyne said:
As for the astrological and qabalistic glyphs and associated meanings, I see those as parallel to the image. The cards encapsulate Crowley's knowledge of Qabalah and magick, but these occult systems are just other ways of encoding meaning, they are not meaning in and of themselves.
That is an interesting thought and worth keeping in mind. Thank you for dropping in Maskelyne!

In order to get free shipping (I hate paying for shipping when I can just get another book!) I have been trolling medieval astrology and Beothius. I am not sure I ever come at anything directly and these might encourage a way of thinking more than offering simple solutions to the problems posed by the Thoth.

I cannot help thinking this is an appropriate almost cliché?
If the Thoth is the answer - what is the question?

So I think context is going to be a side approach for me. Fail or not, I'll certainly learn something! The GD is at the root of the beginnings of Thoth, so a little looking into the minds of Yeats, et al. (and therefore a context for Blake) and investigating the influence on art to give the times some context as well. I was just reading a book on J.W. Waterhouse - never declared publicly a member of the GD, but his art has whispers.

On another note, I think it was on Nicky's thread that I read that modern astrology has been heavily influenced by theosophy? Is it not correct to assume that the GD was also? It will be interesting to discover what Crowley's split with the GD was based on. Does anyone know? I am fishing a little at this point. I really don't know anything! :)
 

Bat Chicken

gregory said:
Ask Scion for a good astrology resource..... And decans, too; his pdf is brilliant (though aimed at Liber T)
I am hoping he'll drop by and offer some suggestions. How tired of us Thoth newbies you all must get! :laugh: It is something to presume I'll be able to absorb any of it...
 

SarahRacheal

Cheering you guys on from the side lines here :D
 

Professor X

anubis777 said:
Hello Bat & Zan i just wanted to tell you that all the info in the books written about the thoth tarot are bogus & very misleading the true meanings of the cards & there astrology are a very guarded secret by the O.T.O. Anyone wishing or hoping to learn the true meanings of the cards are pretty much out of luck b/c any member in the order will never break there oath of secrecy to anyone. Did you notice in Duquettes book how he vaguely gives a very light explanation on some of the minors & while on others he says he doesn't know? Beleive me he knows but will never give up that info to anyone. I contacted someone from a magical order(was not the o.t.o) & this person was nice enough to explain to me every minor card with the unique astrology of the cards & i was pretty much amazed b/c after 16yrs of reading wth the thoth deck i thought i knew the cards very well but i was so wrong. Even the seemingly appearing planet & sign & sephira is so different such as the 3/cups Mercury in Cancer. You can look up Mercury in Cancer in every astrology book written & you will still not have the secret meaning of Mercury in Cancer & how it brings Abundance. After getting this info i had to purge everything out of my head & start all over again the astrology in these cards are truely magical but are kept very secret from the public. Just like the 4/wands every single meaning states tact/gentleness in completion of work well i am here to tell you that the meaning is 100 times different than that. It's a completion all right but one that nobody would ever figure out without knowing the secret meanings of the venus decan of aries & the jupiter/chesed influence on the card. I cannot share this info b/c i swore i would never give it out so its still possible to read with these cards & get accurate info. In the bot crowley states that once you learn the secret attributions the cards leap into life & he was very correct about that so good luck & hope you may find the info your looking for.

This is a very intriguing post. I knew there had to be something more to the cards beyond what you can read about.

I knew the meaning had more depth than what was known by the mere fact of what has happenned to me when I have drawn certain cards. For instance on days when I have drawn the 9 of Discs the gains I have gotten havent really been what you would call wealth but more or less good things happenning on the physical plane. It just shows the meanings of those cards operate in many different aspects than what one would think. Gain has many different aspects that can manifest,the same can be said for the rest of the cards as well.

I look for keys to what happens to me when I draw certain to give me the clues on what the decan really means.
 

AJ

Le Fanu said:
ooh, don't get me started. One of three types (and knitwear isn't one of them, sorry... ;))

Leather. I don't know why - call me kinky - but I think Uncle Al would prefer leather. My pocket Thoth is in a beautiful old soft-leather cigarette case which fits just perfectly.

...
I think uncle Al would be dressed in Naugahyde rappin' like mad so people would think/assume it was leather.
 

anubis777

Hello Professor X
There is so much more to the minor cards than people realize & certain people think perhaps my thread was rude or maybe without hope, but the truth of the matter is these cards do contain a lot of meanings which are derived from the astrology & sephira. Your 9/disks that you get also has to be looked at from the sephira Yesod which is where the Moon resides & its relation to the earth plane. So you really have Yesod in Assiah as well as the Venus decan of Virgo. So you have the emotions of the Moon which are now in the physical plane of earth which is assiah, so from an emotional side a person will be driven emotionally to all kinds of luxury & material things. That's just one aspect of looking at this card there is still the Venus aspect to approach as well as the sign of Virgo. Because this card has the Moon/Venus it has a very feminine energy that is why in the Waite deck you see a woman in the card in a lush garden. The Thoth deck is by far a very complex deck Crowley didn't come up with the astrology in the cards this all came from the Golden Dawn while he was a member. All the books & authors who have published books on the Thoth Tarot sadly know nothing of the deeper meanings of the cards & those that do will never publish or reveal the secrets of the deck except for giving very basic meanings. If the true knowledge was let out then tarot really would have no more mystery about it & everyone would be trying to cash in on it. As for as the Majors they also contain the hebrew letters which also play a very important role in the meanings. So the only true way to be able to learn the tarot from a deep level is by joining various Magical Orders that currently exist today.