Where did Waite get these meanings?

La Force

I am looking for the source of the meanings Waite put in the end of his book PKT. "Some additional meanings of the lesser Arcana", Page 186.

I have looked through his resouces in the Biblography and in the "Mystical origins of the tarot", The source of those meanings he used are not in it. I have both the Zolars book and Foli P.R.S. Fortune telling by cards, both of these are the same, again the meanings are not the same as Waite's. Non of those meanings match to any of these aurthors, Pratesi, Etteilla, Mathers, Levi, de Geblin, Papus, Golden Dawn, etc.

Where is the source of these meanings?
Are they playing card cartomancy meanings?
 

Zephyros

Well, there could be a few. Some of the meanings seem to hint at coming from Liber 777. This book holds all the magickal attributions the Golden Dawn used, although Aleister Crowley probably tweaked it a bit and added and subtracted things when he published it. It goes into every aspect of the symbolism used from letters to stones to perfumes to drugs, etc. While 777 doesn't have meanings per se, these can certainly be extrapolated from it.

Book T could be another source. While the wording in the PKT does not match Book T's, the general message does match in spirit.

As to the other things, I can recognize shadows of the greater meanings attributed to the cards, but in a highly distilled, heavily shortened versions.
 

La Force

Thanks I checked and nope not from those sources hmmmmmm <scratches head>

These meaning come from another source, but which, where, who?

Anyone know
 

Zephyros

Well, if you're looking for passages quoted verbatim, I doubt very much that you'll find them. Waite was not only under oaths of secrecy, but it was also just not his way. All you'll find is influences. The Picatrix also seems to have influences that section.
 

Richard

Thanks I checked and nope not from those sources hmmmmmm <scratches head>

These meaning come from another source, but which, where, who?

Anyone know
I don't think there would be a single source. He haunted the Library of the British Museum in London and read just about everything occult that he could get his hands on. He had a photographic memory, so he probably just pulled these divinatory meanings out of his head, gleaned from his research.
 

caridwen

I always thought they came from common meanings at the time from 'fortune tellers' or people who read playing cards. I'd be interested to know where they come from as well.
 

La Force

Also take note of this, Its is linked to the meanings, we find this source we may find the source to the meanings on pages 288 - 297.

Look and read pages 306. "An alternative method of reading the tarot cards". And take note on page 308. " if of the male sex is represented by the Magician". If female by the High Priestess". Look at page 283. However, these are for the Majors, which when analayised you can tell are presented differently more tarot, where as the Minor Arcana seem more playing card cartomancy.

What do think?
 

caridwen

Also take note of this, Its is linked to the meanings, we find this source we may find the source to the meanings on pages 288 - 297.

Look and read pages 306. "An alternative method of reading the tarot cards". And take note on page 308. " if of the male sex is represented by the Magician". If female by the High Priestess". Look at page 283. However, these are for the Majors, which when analayised you can tell are presented differently more tarot, where as the Minor Arcana seem more playing card cartomancy.

What do think?

I really don't know. I reckon they may come from a mixture of traditional folk meanings and perhaps Alliette (Etteilla) and de Gebelin's stuff. They come across as more folksy than the other meanings in the PKT.
 

La Force

I really don't know. I reckon they may come from a mixture of traditional folk meanings and perhaps Alliette (Etteilla) and de Gebelin's stuff. They come across as more folksy than the other meanings in the PKT.

I am very puzzled, where did these meaning come from???? I looked into Etteilla and de Gebelin stuff, and nope, noda. Thats why I posted, sombody that has studied his works has got to know the source. Somebody out there must know.

It would be interesting to found out whether he made them up (mixing up meanings), like what LRichard suggested, or folksy, or from older source of tradition (playing card cartomancy)

Maybe someone in the UK can find out, visite the museum :D
 

caridwen

I reckon it's the latter, traditional 'gypsy' meanings,you know from cartomancy. He may have added other stuff but it certainly reads like that to me. First he says that these meanings are for the minors only which would certainly indicate cartomancy. Second he says:

"It will be observed (1) that these additamenta have little connexion with the pictorial designs of the cards to which they refer, as these correspond with the more important speculative values..."

To which he adds:

" There is scarcely any canon of criticism in matters of this kind."

Which I presume means that these meanings are passed down from generation to generation and taken at face value.

"I suppose that in proportion as any system descends from generalities to details it becomes naturally the more precarious; and in the records of professional fortune-telling, it offers more of the dregs and lees of the subject."

So he mentions "professional fortune telling". The Victorians were fascinated with Fortune telling, ghosts and all things spiritual. I suppose there were leaflets on tea leaf reading etc that he may have got info from as well as asking 'professional fortune tellers' the meanings for the cards.

"At the same time, divinations based on intuition and second sight are of little practical value unless they come down from the region of universals to that of particulars; but in proportion as this gift is present in a particular case, the specific meanings recorded by past cartomancists will be disregarded in favour of the personal appreciation of card values."

So he says that the meanings recorded by past cartomancists (perhaps where these come from) should be disregarded if the reader has other intuitive meanings for the cards.