Waite's Christianization of Tarot

ravenest

Then again it could be grammar (or my lack of understanding it) ;

' He makes clear in his writings that Christianity was mostly a more symbolically effective version of a Secret Tradition .... (than its effect as a religion) ???

ie. it is better at representing an old tradition in symbol than it is as representing a valid religion ?
 

rwcarter

Moderator Note

Can we bring this discussion back to the Christianization of Tarot? Whether or not Waite was Christian, or to what degree he might have been Christian is somewhat on topic. Discussion of Christianity outside any connection to Waite or the deck is starting to go a little too far afield for the Rider-Waite-Smith forum.
 

ravenest

Okay ... I was trying to demonstrate that the process Waite seemed to outline, re. the import of Christianity, in his view, is not exclusive to Christianity. Yet it appears he used certain symbolic language that Christianity uses to cloth that central mystery.

So although the deck and symbols may appear Christian to some and not to others ... Waite SEEMS TO think the Christian symbols have import.

Christian symbolism of this sort (and its associated writings ) are part of the Hermetic Tradition and hence valid in an Hermetic Order (like the G.D. ) - a Christian 'flavour' does not exclude a practice being Hermetic but an Hermetic approach to Christianity may make it outside the box to orthodox Christians.

Its a process reflected in Freemasonry ... Waite's Masonry ( SRIA - a Masonic esoteric Christian order ) was an accepted form of Masonry (and source for the GD's 'Rosicrucian 5=6 initiation), but Crowley's equivalent Rosicrucian degree ( V degree - Knight of the Pelican and Eagle) was not an accepted version of FM (termed 'spurious') and not accepted by other 'esoteric' Christians and certainly not by orthodox ones.

Waite couldnt put the SRIA or the GD 5=6 symbolism on the cards so he used the next best thing ... from Christian esoteric tradition.

Hope that was clearer ?
 

Teheuti

' He makes clear in his writings that Christianity was mostly a more symbolically effective version of a Secret Tradition .... (than its effect as a religion) ???

ie. it is better at representing an old tradition in symbol than it is as representing a valid religion ?
That wasn't the point for Waite at all. He didn't think much of organized religion and didn't waste his time on it at all. For Waite, the Tarot drew from ancient symbols that kept appearing over and over, telling the same "secret" in a multitude of ways. All of these signs and stories can lead one to the door of the temple, but the real temple is only found in the heart of each individual. Beyond a certain point, a person had to enter there alone - with no further guidance except that which comes from within. That's what the Tarot and other vestiges of the Secret Tradition are trying to tell us. Religion is beside the point, essentially irrelevant.
 

ravenest

I was trying to get clear on what your quote meant ... not stating what Waite's point was.

I agree mostly with what you wrote (except; in many cases one is 'led to the door' via the analogy and metaphor of ritual and teachings ) ... no one can walk through one's own 'heart's door' except the person themselves .

Waite may have already found the 'door' himself ... before he got involved in the GD ?

I dont know about that ... I suppose I would have to know the publication dates and his dates of initiation in the GD ?

... its a question of , I suppose, (?) were the symbols in his tarot deck derived from his previous gnosis, the GD or Christianity ?

I understand what you say about " He didn't think much of organized religion and didn't waste his time on it at all."

He may have understood that ; " the Tarot drew from ancient symbols that kept appearing over and over, telling the same "secret" in a multitude of ways" but it was IMO, Crowley that used the eclectic multitude of symbols and ways in the Thoth deck ... and ... to some, including myself ... it appears that Waite focused more on the Christian symbols eg, In the Ace of Cups .... which seems distinctly Roman Catholic.
 

Richard

........Its a process reflected in Freemasonry ... Waite's Masonry ( SRIA - a Masonic esoteric Christian order ) was an accepted form of Masonry (and source for the GD's 'Rosicrucian 5=6 initiation), but Crowley's equivalent Rosicrucian degree ( V degree - Knight of the Pelican and Eagle) was not an accepted version of FM (termed 'spurious') and not accepted by other 'esoteric' Christians and certainly not by orthodox ones......
The 18° Knight Rose Croix in the Scottish Rite in the US is quasi-Christian, but unlike the York Rite, a belief in Christianity is not required for the Scottish Rite. The degree is described in Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma book, which may be online, I don't know.
 

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ravenest

Well, that may be true in the U.S.

However Waite wasnt in the U.S.

He became a Freemason in 1901,and entered the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia in 1902. ( In amity with United Grand Lodge of England.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._E._Waite

" Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia (Rosicrucian Society of England) is a Masonic esoteric Christian order formed by Robert Wentworth Little in 1865."

" The society (SRIA) requires all aspirants for membership to declare a belief in the fundamental principles of the Trinitarian Christian faith ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Rosicruciana_in_Anglia

( King 1989, page 28 and J. Gordon Melton, page 179
 

Richard

The Ace of Cups is a Christian symbol, but Waite does not think that the Church has any conception of its esoteric significance, without which the Mass is just empty ritual. Read The Hidden Church of the Holy Grail. It explains pretty much everything.
 

Richard

......" The society (SRIA) requires all aspirants for membership to declare a belief in the fundamental principles of the Trinitarian Christian faith ...".....
That's true, but I wonder how many members of the SRIA took that as unconditional assent to the literal truth of the Nicene Creed as formulated by the First Ecumenical Council.
 

ravenest

:Groan: Do I have to read THAT again :( ... it was sooo many years ago).

Yeah it probably explains where Waite was coming form but ... but ... but ... there is linked evidence he had to Masonicaly swear to belief in the fundamental principles of the Trinitarian Christian faith.

Anyway ... it seems a case of using a symbol, that is identifiably Christian from an organisation that he thought didnt have the heart of the mystery but he used their symbols anyway . So its still a mystery to me why he used those symbols .

So is the last word on this; I cant ... or anyone cant really understand the 'Christian' symbols usage in the Waite deck unless one reads 'The Hidden Church of The Holy Grail.' ?

If so I guess any more questions I have ... I will have to look for the answers there.

Is there any other deck that is more internally convoluted , rabbit-holed and .... :laugh: