Seven of Disks

Barleywine

There are some interesting and not entirely obvious parallels between the Thoth and the RWS Seven of Disks/Pentacles. In the Book of Thoth, Crowley says the harvest ("vegetation and cultivation") is blighted and spoiled, denoting total failure. In the RWS, if the penatcles hang there too long, they will "wither on the vine," producing scant value. Crowley just cuts to the chase a little more quickly by eliminating the agency of human sloth, although his blunt title "Failure" is more jarring than the Golden Dawn one "Lord of Success Unfulfilled," which could be read as implying that something might yet be salvaged from the disaster.
 

smw

what seems to be mentioned in the descriptions of the card, both as " Lord of Success Unfulfilled" and Crowley's later title "Failure" is the reference to the geomantric figure Rebeus. The 7 disks on the card are arranged in this pattern, though the RWS 7 of pentacles does not appear to show this.

WIKI said:
Geomantic rubeus - Latin for "Red". The figure is an overturned glass; an inversion, meaning good in all that is evil, and evil in all that is good. Like the Tail of the Dragon, the figure is considered so unfavourable that if it were the first in a reading, the reading would end. Astrologically it is associated with Scorpio and Mars retrograde; its inner element is ruled by air, and its outer element ruled by water. It represents passion, deception, violence, and vice. Its planetary intelligence is Graphiel and its spirit is Bartzabel; it is associated with the god Mavors, and the angels Samael and Barbiel.

On the footnote to the revised Liber T (looks like an o?) Failure is commented on as being far too drastic and the older title should usually be interpreted to mean Success Unfulfilled "Thus Far". So patience and endurance, labour and effort can lead to Victory, which I guess would make sense of the 7's at Netzache, It can be achieved but the going is tough.
 

Lidian

what seems to be mentioned in the descriptions of the card, both as " Lord of Success Unfulfilled" and Crowley's later title "Failure" is the reference to the geomantric figure Rebeus. The 7 disks on the card are arranged in this pattern, though the RWS 7 of pentacles does not appear to show this.







On the footnote to the revised Liber T (looks like an o?) Failure is commented on as being far too drastic and the older title should usually be interpreted to mean Success Unfulfilled "Thus Far". So patience and endurance, labour and effort can lead to Victory, which I guess would make sense of the 7's at Netzache, It can be achieved but the going is tough.


So what you mean is that the meaning of this card may be more along the lines of patience, evaluation and judgment of work as a process for gain than actual failed work?
 

Barleywine

So what you mean is that the meaning of this card may be more along the lines of patience, evaluation and judgment of work as a process for gain than actual failed work?

I think that puts the best possible face on it, and I tend to see it as temporary discouragement and loss of momentum rather than outright abdication of all effort. It might be more favorable in that regard if the geomantic figure Tristitia (Saturn) had been assigned and not Rubeus (Mars): "Unfavorable in most matters, it is favorable for questions involving stability and patience. It is very favorable in all questions involving building and the Earth, where its quality of "stuckness" or permanence is wanted . . ." (John Michael Greer, The Art and Practice of Geomancy). Mars as Rubeus seems a bit too disruptive, impatient, fierce and violent to support those more pragmatic ideas. Saturn does make an appearance as ruler of the last decan of Taurus (another connection with Venus), but its presence there is more about restriction or denial of satisfaction than endurance. Crowley equates it to "lead" rather than to the fertile soil of Taurus.
 

smw

So what you mean is that the meaning of this card may be more along the lines of patience, evaluation and judgment of work as a process for gain than actual failed work?

I am working on the meanings of the card myself and I am pretty new to the Thoth and Tarot, so bear that in mind. It might help to give the exact footnote from the revised Liber T that I was looking at.

"Success Unfulfilled Thus far"...It often includes the idea of patience, and endurance through the passage of time, and the need for labor and effort, which are those elements required on the plane of Earth in order to achieve Victory"

This does seem more positive than just outright failure, as it appears to include ideas like patience and endurance so that you can eventually (hopefully) achieve success. Though this to me does not exclude the negative energies of the card that are also clearly present.

Maybe it could go either way...
 

Barleywine

I am working on the meanings of the card myself and I am pretty new to the Thoth and Tarot, so bear that in mind. It might help to give the exact footnote from the revised Liber T that I was looking at.



This does seem more positive than just outright failure, as it appears to include ideas like patience and endurance so that you can eventually (hopefully) achieve success. Though this to me does not exclude the negative energies of the card that are also clearly present.

Maybe it could go either way...

Just to be certain, is the "revised Liber T" you're referring to the Jim Eshelman version from the College of Thelema? I know Crowley's 1912 publication was also slightly revised, but not enough to consider it an outright "revision."
 

smw

Just to be certain, is the "revised Liber T" you're referring to the Jim Eshelman version from the College of Thelema? I know Crowley's 1912 publication was also slightly revised, but not enough to consider it an outright "revision."

It's from the College of Thelema revised fourth edition 2012.

http://www.thelema.org/publications/books/LiberT.pdf

I thought this was the more recent revised one because of the current title of Failure and there is additional text. Somethings have been omitted, such as the description of the white radiating Angelic Hand issuing from a cloud and the names given of the ruling angels (enochian looking)...the odd missing phrase -A cultivator of land, and yet a loser thereby.


I was comparing it to the 7 of pentacles 'Lord of Success unfulfilled' from Liber LXXVIII - A description of the Tarot cards, I think by Crowley? I can't see a date for this.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib78.html
 

Thoughtful

Failure does seem a harsh way of naming the 7 Disks it seems to be true though.
Two examples of where the 7 Disks came up in readings l did for others, and obviously in a very potted version.

1. The lady had tried hard to save and have money set aside for her future, an urgent matter came up where she had to use the savings. It was a miserable time for her money wise and her failure was not being able to generate enough money to start her savings up again. 7 Disks was very attuned to her predicament.

2. The other person was trying to decide between leaving one enterprise and starting a new one, mainly because the enterprise was not doing so well. He did in the end start afresh. If he had stayed with the first option it would have failed miserably. 7 Disks here was giving a timely warning.

These examples may or may not help the discussion here, good old 7 Disks does try hard to point the way, even with its harsh title.
 

smw

2. The other person was trying to decide between leaving one enterprise and starting a new one, mainly because the enterprise was not doing so well. He did in the end start afresh. If he had stayed with the first option it would have failed miserably. 7 Disks here was giving a timely warning.

These examples may or may not help the discussion here, good old 7 Disks does try hard to point the way, even with its harsh title.

I was wondering about it as a warning card, that makes sense to me and is in keeping IMO with Crowley's melodramatic style sometimes.
 

Thoughtful

smw yes Crowley does like his drama l used to be quite intimidated when l begun my journey with The Thoth, it is a wonderful deck l love it.