Non-scenically illustrated pips

MeeWah

Zorya: My thoughts exactly about the shoulders & the legs!
The odd proportions add an interesting, other than ordinary aspect to the figures, though they tend to look distorted or like caricatures. There may be a significance in that--a referral to imperfection in the earth, perhaps?

It appears there is a numerical or geometrical significance to the arrangement of the pips.
Ace/One is a straight forward representation of "one". It is complete in itself & needs no adornment.
Two appears as equally opposing forces or sides. There is the potential of them meeting on common ground: the middle.
Three is 1 being upheld by 2; or 2 producing 1 more. The former hints at structure; the latter at creation.
Four is 2 + 2. There is an invisible intersection in which they meet & cross to make an "X", reminscent of an "x" marking a center; the arrangement also hints at corners. 4 is considered a sacred number because is is composed of straight lines only. Its numerical shape is a triangle & a cross, which represents Man (straight line) carrying the divine principle (triangle).
Five is 2 + 3. Unequal forces, conflict; change. 5 is 2 straight lines & a half circle, or fallen Man upheld by his soul/unconscious. 5 represents testing through conflict; learning life lessions through the 5 senses. 5 also means freedom, as in the Truth shalt set ye free.
Six is 2 + 4. Interesting it is not depicted as 3 + 3, which refers to the concept of as above, so below; harmony, balance, accomplishment. As in spirit meeting matter depicted by 2 triangles intersecting each other or the 6-pointed Star of David. As 2 + 4, it speaks of union (2) & stability (4). Its numerical shape is a straight line & a circle, or Man supported by his soul, by divinity.
Seven is 3 + 4. Divine principle ruling over matter. The uniting of the higher self (3) with the lower self (4). It is an inner process indicating spiritual growth or learning. 7 is the other sacred number that is composed only of straight lines. It shape refers to fallen Man upheld by the I AM, thus the union of higher & lower selves.
Eight is 4 + 4. Equal forces or balance that also refer to as above, so below; meeting in perfect harmony. The numerical shape of 8 is 2 circles atop each other; also the symbol of infinity, the flow of life which is unending; life & death; regeneration; resurrection.
Nine is 4 + 5. The natural order (4) is achieved through change (5). 9 is a circle upheld by a straight line. The soul in touch with the I AM. It represents the end of a cycle as well as matter that cannot be destroyed--9 is the only number when multiplied by any other number always results in 9.
Ten is 5 + 5. Again, equal forces or balance attained through struggle & learning. It represents completion or perfection; unity.
10 is a straight line & a circle symbolizing I AM with God.

BTW: The above correlations are based only on the Wands. The pips of the other suits differ some in their arrangements.
Am sure there is more that could be said, but how does it all strike you so far?
 

Lee

Hey, MeeWah, now I'll have to go dig out my Tarot of The Witches! My decks love this, you're making me pay more attention to them. :)

-- Lee
 

zorya

tarot of the witches pips

meewah, i laid mine out again, if i look at just one suit, i can come up with possible significance. if i look at 1-4, they make perfect sense, it's when i lay out all the pips that i suspect, the positions were primarily for aesthetic purposes. i so wanted the 5's to fit a pattern, either 3 + 2 or a pentacle shape. but they differ from suit to suit. when i laid all the pips out, i began to suspect that their positions were primarily for aesthetic purposes. the wands and swords are basically the same shape so laid out the same. the cups and pentacles appear to be laid out to fit around the center picture. the pentacles would not fit, horizontally, so are placed in a more arching way just to fit. i do hope i'm wrong though :)
 

jmd

Just a quick added note to refer to a post of Lee's on the previous page, in which is asked: 'as a practical matter, how do you handle reversals in those decks in which some cards look the same upright and reversed? For example, in the Marseille deck currently sold by USGames, many of the Wands cards in particular are the same upright and reversed. Do you mark the cards, or just not read reversals with those cards which can't be distinguished?'

I guess that I have to agree with MeeWah's earlier comment: 'I tend to operate on "auto-pilot" so I am not always consciously aware of a process'. The non-reversability applies only to very few cards, but even in many of them, the eye can be directed to leaves or flowers which either grow upwards (hence an uprightness of the card is indicated) or downwards (hence the reverse). This can occur even with cards which are symmetrical (check the 3 of Wands: if your eyes are directed towards the downward leaves, read it as reversed, if towards the uprward ones, as upright).

Having said this, I also realise that there are still some cards which do not even have the benefit of what I am saying (in the Conver Marseilles deck, only the nine of wands!). For cards such as this, let what you have read determine what to read (and in the sentence just read, how has 'read' been read? It's tense is there too determined by context!).

This has developed to be a fascinating thread. Looking forward to reading more.
 

Lee

You know, the more I'm thinking about this, a numerological system for the Minors based entirely on 1-10 of the Majors makes more and more sense to me. I think it would have several advantages.

Since some system must be used, why look outside the Tarot for a system, when there's already one that already exists within the Tarot, i.e. the Majors? This would serve to make one's interpretive system for the Tarot as a whole more organic, since one's interpretations for all 78 cards would be based on things intrinsic to the deck. And as a practical matter, such a system would certainly be easier to learn, because anyone who has been studying the Tarot for more than a few weeks will have a sense of which Major cards are numbered 1-10, and there would be no need to memorize a new set of meanings for the numbers 1-10.

So the four Minor cards for each number would each represent aspects of the corresponding Major card, according to the element. The 4 of Cups, for example, could represent an Emperor-type energy in the field of the emotions, or the emotional nature of the Emperor.

Another advantage for this system is that because of the archetypal nature of the Majors, there could be a depth of interpretive possibilities which would possibly offer more intuitive potential than simply a numerological meaning combined with a suit meaning, which still seems to me a rather dry way of reading.

Finally, I think the main appeal of the Tarot to a lot of people is the archetypal pattern of the Majors, and reading Minors in this way would allow them to extend and deepen their use and understanding of the Majors.

Using the Majors as a basis for determining the meanings for the numbers 1-10 would necessitate a divergence from the commonly-accepted meanings for these numbers. For those who might be apprehensive about abandoning these meanings, it's important to note that there have been several different numerological systems used throughout history. It is possible to find Tarot literature where, for example, the Fives indicate good fortune and positive things, rather than the challenge or adversity commonly ascribed to them nowadays.

Of course, the system I'm proposing depends on acceptance of the common Marseilles numbering of the Majors, and, as we know, the earliest decks were unnumbered.

I'm going to try experimenting with this method and see how it works in real life.

-- Lee
 

emily2otters

another solution to lee's question about obscured reversals:

i took a permanent marker and marked my ukiyoe deck with underlined arabic numerals. i had to do it, because my command of roman numerals is very tenuous, plus they're kind of hidden in the flowers on some cards... it also had the advantage of making reversals very easy to see. boy, i sure felt like a vandal doing it, but i can happily say that it has improved my relationship with the deck. i don't regret it at all.

:)

thanks for the discussions of numerology. keep 'em coming.
 

MeeWah

Zorya: I also wondered if the arrangement of some of the pip images was to accomodate the center design on each card. In the absence of ascertaining differently, it is probably "safe" to attribute some of the patterns to "aesthetics" rather than anything esoteric. It is also possible that the latter occurred unconsciously.
Without illustrations, the numeric & elemental correspondences are a practical & viable means to afford interpretations, along with any intuitive impressions.
 

MeeWah

JMD: With regard to non-obvious reversals, I agree with following where the eye leads one--to the upwards or downwards view of flowers or leaves--to determine same.
This also leads to a reiteration of my position on the subject of employing reversals--that one does not need to see a physical reversal to read it as such. If the eye is attracted to the bottom of an upright card, then that is a hint. Or, as I understand you to refer to the tone of what was already detected or read in the preceding cards. Most of the time it is an intricate process that is not readily obvious nor lends itself to a coherent explanation but it is an exercise in itself to attempt.
 

jmd

As various threads on studying non-scenic pips have been started, I thought I'd also bring to the fore this thread which is now nearly two years old.

Since then, of course, the Forum's membership has more than increased sixfold, and I would now be more careful with the word 'illustrated', preferring to say that Marseille type pips are non-scenic... for of course they are illustrated!

Anyhow, 'tis a thread I thought would be apt given the current areas of study and interest.
 

Moongold

Thank you JMD ~

This is very timely. I have printed it out and will study it quietly.

I was looking at the RWS Swords last night and feeling that I needed to understand this differently.

Moongold