Watch out for this scam on Ebay/Amazon!

gregory

earthair said:
So you think it's perfectly fine to do this as long as it's a cheap deck? At what price would it be a scam to advertise a deck as new, take misleading pictures and deliberately try to pretend it hasn't been cut open and played with?

Let's imagine for a moment this was bought by someone for whom £5 is a lot of money, and this is their first and only deck that they will ever afford, and they specifically do not want a deck with someone elses energy on it- is it then a scam?

If a deck has been opened, that doesn't make it USED. A lot of stores allow people to open decks to look at them. The decks are still new - just as a book that has been opened is still new. You don't know that anyone has done more than look at it.

No, I don't see it as a scam. Sorry. Misleading - sure - but the deck sounds as though it could well qualify as new. And the photo could have been taken before the deck was opened, BTW.

As to "not understanding the facts of the matter" - no-one has said anything that suggests they don't. You received a deck listed as new which had been opened, and which had a torn box. What other facts are there ?

As to the "energy" on a deck - as I don't buy into that, it doesn't bother me, no. If you do, and if a deck had been used enough to build up any, though - it wouldn't still slide neatly into the cellophane.

Aranel

I ordered a new deck on Amazon marketplace that was one of the fulfilled by Amazon ones.
It came with a damaged box, cards opened, not in order and just loose in the box (it came with a book so a big box)

Bit of backstory. I've had a whole heap of trouble with the fulfilled by Amazon marketplace sellers when buying second hand books. I loathe film/TV tie-in cover editions so when I'm on Amazon marketplace I'm very careful making sure that the isbn and the edition that I'm ordering is not a film tie-in cover. When I ordered those cards, I'd already done four return parcels to Amazon in the previous 2 months for incorrect editions of books or books sold as used-like new with damaged covers, marks, underlining, and ripped dust-jackets.

I got the deck in the same parcel as three books that were utterly filthy (again supposed to be used-like new) or were the wrong edition.

I snapped. Didn't even bother ringing Amazon to moan at them about how the sellers are lying about their stock. Just went straight to the feedback page and left very angry negative feedback. I never leave feedback (negative or positive) because I can never be bothered to.

Didn't hear anything back from the book sellers ( I waited a few days to calm down before ringing Amazon to moan and sort out returning them) but the guy who sold the cards did send me an email.

"I am sorry to have read your feedback. I order new stock from my suppliers which gets delivered to the fulfillment warehouse. Unfortunately there must have been an oversight with my suppliers, nevertheless I take full responsibility and I am going to issue you with a FULL refund without you returning the item back to me.

Once again, please accept my apologies for what has happened"

So it can just be a genuine mistake.

I've learnt my lesson though. I don't go anywhere near the fulfilled by Amazon sellers anymore. Although not sure if your deck just came from an ordinary marketplace seller.

Debra

earthair said:
Please read my reply to AJ. I don't, yet they were, except for 2 cards.

The fact that many replies to this thread think there is nothing wrong with what this seller did, and can't even seem to understand the facts of the matter or the principle at stake, is concerning.

Oh dear! So sorry you misunderstood what I am saying!

I am saying, there is no reason to expect cards in order. It's a function of the collating process.

This is for the information of anyone who might think it significant whether or not cards are in order.

earthair said:
Obviously they weren't new- especially as they weren't in order!

Grizabella

But cellophane that decks are wrapped in can come apart sometimes in quite straight lines. That's why I don't see that a person should jump to the conclusion that the seller was dishonest. It's entirely possible that they got the deck and since the cards were pristine, they just thought they were brand new and might not have given any thought to the torn or cut cellophane. People who don't use or study or collect the cards might very well have just seen the cards were like new and not given the cellophane wrapping any thought.

It's true that IF the seller had done it for nefarious reasons and had been dishonest with someone before that we knew for a fact had been a dishonest transaction, then we might be more inclined to say it was a scam.

I commend you for coming to warn us of what was thought to be a scam because that was a good thing to do among people who take Tarot so seriously. But I'm just hesitant to think it was a dishonest thing without more to go on. Any deck that comes in a very damaged box would surprise me more if the cellophane hadn't been broken or seemingly cut.

Yelell

gregory said:
If a deck has been opened, that doesn't make it USED. A lot of stores allow people to open decks to look at them. The decks are still new - just as a book that has been opened is still new. You don't know that anyone has done more than look at it.

No, I don't see it as a scam. Sorry. Misleading - sure - but the deck sounds as though it could well qualify as new.

While I 'm not sure how bent out of shape I would be from a similar situation, I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. I don't know of any store that would allow people to unwrap and look through a new deck of sealed cards, a board game, a set of dishes, or anything to riffle around in it and then put it back on the shelf! Not like a book at all. A deck like that would end up in the clearance section for a reduced price. So would an open dvd player or blender. I would NOT consider an open box item that was allowed to be handled to qualify as new.

Grizabella

Yelell said:
While I 'm not sure how bent out of shape I would be from a similar situation, I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. I don't know of any store that would allow people to unwrap and look through a new deck of sealed cards, a board game, a set of dishes, or anything to riffle around in it and then put it back on the shelf! Not like a book at all. A deck like that would end up in the clearance section for a reduced price. So would an open dvd player or blender. I would NOT consider an open box item that was allowed to be handled to qualify as new.

Here they used to let you look through a deck that was just there specifically for looking through but people stole those decks so then they started putting the cards in page protectors they could chain to a counter or some would let you ask for one to look through that was kept behind the checkout counter.

gregory

Grizabella said:
Here they used to let you look through a deck that was just there specifically for looking through but people stole those decks so then they started putting the cards in page protectors they could chain to a counter or some would let you ask for one to look through that was kept behind the checkout counter.

There is that - yes; I well remember finding the box from a set with the deck gone and drawing Borders' (I miss Borders

) attention to it.

But yes - there ARE still stores that let you do that when they only have one copy - Not a lot, but there are. And in fact, I was in one a year or so ago where I was distrustful after I had looked through the display set and had them open a blue owl Lennie for me, to make sure that - and sure enough.... Now THEIR display copy was well beat up - and I did buy that for a discount - but she opened ALL the ones on display; they were ALL "wrong" and she put them back on the shelf with another of that type as the new "look through" one so that people would actually be looking through what they were getting. Were ALL those looked through by a member of the store staff "unused" and discountable ?

I had no idea about the "fulfilled by amazon" thing. I haven't had trouble with it (yet) but I shall watch with care, now - thanks, Aranel

earthair

New = new. Not used, not opened. Not sniffed, shuffled, reordered, played with, or looked through. If AGM/ LoS / USG put a celophane wrap around the cards, then I expect it to be intact, not artfully cut down the edges at the back to get the cards in and out before/after taking a photo to 'prove' it's unwrapped.

As for this supposed checking to see if all the cards are all there- deck manufacturers don't wrap their decks, then have a person unwrap them all prior to shipment just to check.

Chocolate purveyors don't let you open the box, lick the merchandize and put it back on the shelf either. :bugeyed:

My seller didn't open it to take photos of the cards laid out. Just gave a photo of the cards in the celophane.

Debra I haven't misunderstood you. At the risk of repeating myself for the 3rd time- I don't expect cards to be in order. Yes some decks come in random orders inside celophane. But this deck WAS in perfect order, except the Hermit (IX) and Strength (XI) were reversed. That's an event with a likely probability of millions to one, nothing to do with collating. The lwb was yellowed and torn. The box was torn. Not a new deck. Even if it had sat on a shelf in a shop for 30 years, describing it as 'new' is a massive stretch of reality.

gregory

So that VERY well known London store with a stack of blue owl Lennies - all with the shrink wrap opened - they should all be discounted ? Isn't it better that the buyer doesn't have to bring it back the next week, wasting time and tube fares, as it isn't what the serial number suggests it is or what the display deck with the identical numbers on implies that it is ? (and the store, BTW, was in no way at fault; Aranel may be on to something there.)

I alerted another well known London store (as they had said they had stock and I'd been about to buy from them by mail, when I suddenly found myself visiting London anyway) that they might like to check their stock, and received the reply "funnily enough we just found this out the hard way, as we have had two returned on that basis."

They were perfectly good Lennies - but they had card inserts, not verses, as one expected with that box, back colouring and number. Anyone who WANTED card inserts would otherwise have missed them, as those are usually PINK owl Lennies. They might have been delighted to find them in so unexpected a package. At least they would get when they had been looking for.

I'm sorry you are so upset - but I cannot see this as this huge issue, except for the damaged box. And yes, I would say given the price, that was not a huge issue.

As to the card order - yes, probably these were looked through - but don't forget that machines usually collate them - if the XI slot and the IX slot were misfilled by whoever loaded them.... this COULD easily happen in factory. I have had a totally sealed deck just recently where two of the courts were among the Aces and everything else was "normal". I had a conniption fit when ordering them to check for missing cards - I was sure I had two pages missing...

earthair said:
Amazon Marketplace. Clicked on the 'new' options, as some didn't seem to know whether they were selling cards or a book I thought I'd be safest with the one who showed a photo of cards

ETA I believe amazon uses stock photos for all listings; I just looked at their Neuzeits and no matter which you go to, all have the same image. I ran into this kind of thing ages ago, when trying to buy a set,; I always email marketplace sellers when there is any possibility of... And she was delighted - she said there was no way for her to say "book only" on her listing (there are some really annoying ones where the book shares an ISBN with the one on the outside of a set box !) but the cards were NOT included and she'd already had the book returned once because of this.

Yelell

Well according to the amazon.com site (not sure if amazon.de and others are the same)

New: Just like it sounds. A brand-new, unused, unopened item in its original packaging, with all original packaging materials included. Original protective wrapping, if any, is intact. Original manufacturer's warranty, if any, still applies, with warranty details included in the listing comments.

Used - Like New: An apparently untouched item in perfect condition. Original protective wrapping may be missing, but the original packaging is intact and pristine. There are absolutely no signs of wear on the item or its packaging. Instructions are included. Item is suitable for presenting as a gift.

Yes, I think the display model, even "unused," is not really new.