What's your fave tarot history theory?

Where did tarot come from ... your views

  • Invented in Italy in the 15th Century

    Votes: 74 69.8%
  • Invented by the Ancient Greeks

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Invented by the Romans

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Invented by the Persians

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • Invented by the Mongols

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Been around in one way or another since people could draw on cave walls

    Votes: 9 8.5%
  • Came from somewhere in the xargle diplock alpha system :O)

    Votes: 15 14.2%

  • Total voters
    106

Ross G Caldwell

It depends how you define what tarot is, before you can date it.

I approach tarot in at least two different ways, and use different definitions for each.

For historical research, I define "tarot" as a deck of 78 cards, four suits and 21 trumps, and a fool. And there are some variants. By this definition, it was invented, I think, in late 15th century Italy. So I start with the earliest trace of something looking like that, and work backward... then I quickly bump into "trionfi".

So I define "trionfi" cards a little differently, and these were first painted or drawn in the early 15th century, or even late 14th. They look a lot like "tarot" cards, but I don't like to mix my terms, it might prove misleading. Trionfi cards are (in my opinion again) depictions of trionfi, "triumphs", which are either victory parades or allegorical images, best known as being parts of processions or parades in Italy, where an ancient tradition kept them alive from Roman times; Petrarch made "rime" of them. You can read about them and see lots of images here:
http://www.geocities.com/autorbis/Trionfi.html

But he was not the only one. Trionfi were a relatively popular subject.

When they were first depicted in a "card-like" way, I don't know. Many experiments might have been lost, but the earliest trace seems to be in the 1420's, with the deck painted by Michelino da Besozzo.
http://www.geocities.com/autorbis/Marcello11.html
In my opinion, tarot/tarocchi is a branch of this large family of cards.

Another way to look at the tarot is to understand the imagery - interpretation. For this the historical method can only go so far.
If you imagine the cards as stained glass rather than cardboard, then the light shining through them comes from much more distant times.

It is difficult, when defining the cards solely as conveying imagery, to date them. If the image of Justice on a particular card is thought of as carrying all recognizable images of Justice, throughout time, then she goes back almost as far as we can see, to Egypt and Babylonia - it seems there was always Libra.

Nevertheless, I personally try to limit myself, in my interpretations of historical cards, to ones that are historically viable. With a particular deck, what could a person at time have known, or imagined about the image? Because of this approach, I am constantly studying the 15th century and earlier periods, in order to expand my palette of interpretations, to discipline myself against anachronism.

Some of the results of my approach, essentially an art-historical one, can be seen at my website,
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot

There are a few essays there.

Ross
 

Umbrae

“Umbrae Draco, mouthpiece of Ooolatek the Seditious One who speaks only lies is about to speak, tremble ye heretics!

We know that Tarot was a gift from the master race, although the Xargle Diplock Alpha System, is in the incorrect quadrant.

We invite you to examine the Star card…now arc to Arcturus, and speed onto Spica. Since Arcturus is speeding away from us, and Spica is moving towards us…we know that…”

Umbrae looks carefully around and steps off his soapbox.

Picking the soapbox up he mutters, “I thought this was the contest thread…sorry…”

And exits...


:smoker:
 

catboxer

so, I guess Egypt ain't good enough for you guys no more.

Ah, the fickleness of the tourist trade.
 

Moongold

I go for Holmes' or Mari's theories.

I 've always throught of Tarot as kind of spiritual literacy tool invented by the Gods in time unknown.

We could probably look ar Rock Art and find a version. Yea!
 

Minderwiz

I think Marco Polo brought it back from China. He was an inveterate gambler and having lost most of his fortune on Poker, wanted a new card game where only he knew the rules and therefore was bound to win.

For much of the next 200 years or so it remained in Northern Italy, where the Polo family set up a whole series of gambling joints for Venetian sailors and thus also founded the Mafia.

Eventually a passing Fench sailor, Marsay d'Ec stole a pack from a Polo Casino and took it first to France where he and the Comte de Gerbil opened the Monte Carlo Casino. One day a passing English traveller 'Big Mac' Mathers, overheard d'Ec apparantly saying that the deck had brought him a fortune. Mathers believed that d'Ec used Tarot for fotune telling, instead of gambling and pausing only to steal one of the Casino packs, rushed back to England where he opened the famous Golden Dawn Tarot parlour at the end of Blackpool Pier. Here you could have your fortune told whilst eating a slice of deep fried Qabalah.

A rich American businessman, Eliphas Levi (inventor of hipster jeans) provided additional finance, and soon Golden Dawn Tarot parlours spread throughout the UK and eventually into the US.

The rest, so the say is history.
 

littlegreen

book

There is a fantastic book on the history of the tarot (surprisingly readable, for 2 academic historians) called "A Wicked Pack of Cards".

Seems fairly comprehensive.

Who out there's read it?
 

Cerulean

I've read Michael Dummet/Ron Decker's

Wicked Pack of Cards and am still looking at History of The Occult Tarot now and again. Michael Dummett also has a description of the Visconti Sforza tarocchi card by card and color pictures--I got this used on Abebooks.com.

I think playing card historians are great places to start research on historical card backgrounds. People here have many reasons why they want to approach tarot. So some people find the delicate details of the art history approach only appealing for a few specific decks. I appreciate card historians on the Di Gumppenberg tarot designs, because I really like the Milanese patterns.

Thank you for the reminder of the books--I'd like to check the historical Golden Dawn biographies that I'm looking up to compare what they say. Since finding the Kathleen Raines book where she shows Yeat's tarot pack was a historical Milanese Italian Dotti tarot, I'm having renewed interest in this area. It might not lead to anything...but I've been enjoying what I've been seeing of the Dotti deck and coloring a black and white deck based on the Di Gumppenberg patterns.

I would say they are great design and history resources for me.
Hope you like the History of the Occult Tarot as well. Ron Decker wrote some fascinating information about the Knapp Hall tarot.

Mari H.

P.S. On second and third rereading of this, the ironic and dry barbs are beginning to stand out to me. One slant seems to be Alexander Crowley was not too happy about not being able to trace his ancestry to any noble Irish lines and had some resentment against Yeats, as "Yeats was Irish and a real poet" --- I'll find the exact quote after class tonight. The implication was Crowley might have wanted to be respected or linked to Irish ancestry or known for his writing?

Anyway, there seems slightly barbed humor in certain areas.
 

Huck

The question, when Tarot originated, depends on the question, what Tarot is.
Of course this question could be answered according to the preference of any speaker, and there is "free speech" for anybody.

However, we live in a world full of speakers and it has become convenience to organize language in a manner, that somebody else could understand our own talking.

So "Tarot comes from old Egyptia" only works as a sufficient note in communication, when before it is noted, that "Tarot" in this statement "is not limited to all what is printed or painted on small pieces of paper". Old Egyptyans didn't know paper.

Whenever we talk of paper, we're rather fixed on the development in 14th/15th century, which did lead to playing-cards, and "under this limited condition" nothing else is earlier than the 16 trump cards in the Michelino-deck, described by Marziano da Tortona and commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti.

http://trionfi.com/0/b/

A lot of people would say, that this is not "Tarot" and would like to imply further conditions which must be fulfilled to "speak of Tarot", for instance it should have 22 trumps, 16 courts and
40 number cards.
Count Maria Matteo Boiardo in his Tarocchi poem perhaps is the oldest with this stylish element, but if you take a look at the details, you might realize, that this is totally different of your possible expectations.

http://trionfi.com/0/h/

Unsatisfied the mind might wander to the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi, earlier than the Boiardo-Poem and with much more similar-to-"our-tarot" pictures. But - here evidence seems demand to accept, that this deck has an earlier state as a 5x14-deck,

http://trionfi.com/0/f/11

not fulfilling the "22"-scheme, which often is seen of some importance for the "true" Tarot deck.

Well - leaving the reality of paper-use one might search for earlier Tarots, just assuming, that the idea to Tarot was first and then - later or much later - the transport from another media to the paper media happened.

This leaves the chance to offer a lot of theories, how it happened.

A "22"-group, organised in a row - as in the paper-Tarot - connected to pictures - as in the paper Tarot - is known from very early Egyptia (ca. 2400 BC). Small arcana are missing. The pictures were commonly at the southern side of temple - as far I'm informed. They don't look like the Tarot-cards - but who cares. Is the Rider-Waite really similar to the Crowley? What is similarity?

Let's assume the following:

Tarot is the idea to sort the world in 22 chapters or pictures or ideas. As any other mathematical concepts it's "before the world", that means rather old. Endlessly old - per definition.

*******
Edited 2009, Links updated
 

Umbrae

Huck said:
So "Tarot comes from old Egyptia" only works as a sufficient note in communication, when before it is noted, that "Tarot" in this statement "is not limited to all what is printed or painted on small pieces of paper". Old Egyptyans didn't know paper.

Whenever we talk of paper, we're rather fixed on the development in 14th/15th century, which did lead to playing-cards, and "under this limited condition" nothing else is earlier than the 16 trump cards in the Michelino-deck, described by Marziano da Tortona and commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti.

“Old Egyptians didn’t know paper” is a statement that implies that only paper can be used as a portable medium of images; and that Tarot in it’s modern Euro-centric context is the only perception allowed.

Although, they did not have paper as we now know and conceive it to be, pre-Common era Mediterranean civilizations had parchments, scroll materials, and in fact, Egyptians had papyrus scrolls (most notably the Book of the Dead) as early as 3,000 BC.

And let’s not discount the Dead Sea Scrolls…

True…we may be able to discount European style playing cards; we may be able to discount European style gaming.

But we cannot discount the archetypal images as having been placed upon a portable medium long before they surfaced in Europe.

We can take a Euro-centric view and state flatly that the images themselves did not exist since we have no history to prove it…yet.

However when history proves us wrong…we have to admit it.
 

Huck

Umbrae said:

True…we may be able to discount European style playing cards; we may be able to discount European style gaming.

But we cannot discount the archetypal images as having been placed upon a portable medium long before they surfaced in Europe.

We can take a Euro-centric view and state flatly that the images themselves did not exist since we have no history to prove it…yet.

However when history proves us wrong…we have to admit it.

There were various ways to produce compositions of allegorical figures before playing cards. And they did so, presenting "systems" in books or in paintings at the wall, in churches etc.. For instance the zodiac, the 7 planets, in literature by listing or other arrangements, orders of angels, allegories to chess-figures etc.., Olympic gods, geomantic orders, pictures of the 12 monthesmuch funny ideas.
But, they did forget to tell us about Tarot and about its special sequence. That's curious, isn't it? Whoever was on Tarot before the origin of playing cards ... this tells us, that there weren't much people involved - at least that, if any. And when Tarot as playing cards started, they didn't start with that, what we might perceive as "archetypical" or ideal, for instance with 22 trumps, but just with their own common pictures and other numbers. Incredible ... as if they wanted to hide something, all mankind in cooperation to hide the secret knowledge of Tarot to the eyes of the future, fighting with each other other in the past, but unique in the demand .... not to present Tarot.
Finally, when they had Tarot and started not to stay in secrecy with it, they played cards with it and they nearly did forget about it, as if it would be totally uninteresting. Interesting, isn't it?

Do you really think, that the "archetypical world" - if something like this exists - needs necessarily pictures? These motifs of Tarot are always different, seldom and according to printing conditions they kept one motif or presentation idea alive a longer time. It#s a field of creativity, not more.

If there were something before Tarot in its form as playing cards, and it was REALLY similar to Tarot - are you sure, that you would acknowledge it with a fixation on pictures or pictoral reprentation?

Perhaps we should turn the question. What's archetypical? Whatever this is, this should be called Tarot? How about that? Is that a way to solve the problem how to define Tarot?