...and Crowley be thy Name

hennafairy

don't be scared of a word. ;o)

also, wikipedia is user based, so it's not the most reliable source either - not bad to read it but keep that in mind!! but from my understanding, satanism is not what the christian church would lead you to believe, but almost holding humans up as "gods"? i'm not all that clear on it... i do recall the book Paganism by Joyce Higginbotham had a pretty good explanation.

mostly satanism has the gut-reaction of evil, which is reinforced by movies and media. similar to pagans and witches (and often all viewed as the same thing). while - according to most church standards - it may still be viewed as wrong/evil, it's not the devil worshipping animal sacrificing scene that the common images portray. and people who do that are just sick twisted individuals, usually kids looking for attention. (in modern times anyway. i know the issue of animal sacrifice in history is a question that most neopagans like to think didn't happen, but could have.)

(i'm no expert and not all that well read on the topics, these are just my understandings, and i could be wrong. but i still say you should never let a word scare you! ;)
 

star-lover

thank you henna

xxx
 

Myrrha

Rosanne said:
Q. Now the biggie! Do you think Crowley a Santanist?
A. In the terms of how it was understood 1900-1960 before leVey- yes I do
and although I am not going to re read Confessions again I have found
this partly pertinent quote ..to aspire with increasing fervour and concentration, for six months, towards the obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Once He has appeared, it is then necessary, first, to call forth the Four Great Princes of the Evil of the World; next, their eight sub-princes; and, lastly, the three hundred and sixteen servitors of these.

I don't see how this operation would make AC (or anyone) a Satanist. This very much like the magical working described in the _Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage_. It is exactly like it if you take the Princes of Evil and their servitors to be the goetic entities. The reason a magician would call these spirits up after making contact with the Holy Guardian Angel is to establish dominion and authority over them.

This is very different from worshipping the Prince or Princes of evil as Traditional Satanists do. Also, if you've read Crowley's introduction to the Goetia than you know that he understood the demons as psychological complexes or powers residing in the brain of the magician and not as independant entities. Traditional Satanists believe Satan and the Demons are independant beings.

Also, if doing this makes one a Satanist than many members of the Order of the Golden Dawn would have been Satanists as I believe they also used the Abramelin book.

Which is not to say that Crowley did not go through a Satanic period early in his career.

--Myrrha
 

Fulgour

Rosanne said:
Q. Do you think this interview will clear things up?
Thanks :) Rosanne! Still, when it comes to this subject,
there always seems to be more unquestionable answers
than appreciated questions. Who was Crowley, anyway?
 

Rosanne

prudence said:
~and, Rosanne, I do have one problem with your Playboy interview.....there needs to be at least one question that is purely based in smut (especially considering the person being discussed.) I read the whole interview, and did not see a single one. :( :D

tsk tsk Prudence- such prurience! I guess I should have asked something smutty of myself lol- but then I would have had to type the answer out :D
I can give you something from the The Song of Solomon much misunderstood and got some Christians called Satanists once upon an unbalanced time.
Your stature itself is as a stately Palm, your breasts are as clusters of grapes, I will climb into my palm tree....

Quoth Fulgour:
Who was Crowley, anyway?
I have written an answer in lemon juice between these brackets [.........]
You will have to iron your screen with a hot iron to get the answer :D
~Rosanne
 

sweet_intuition

prudence said:
:D This is funny, it would make such a perfect signature!!! (well, in my humble opinion, that is)

Lol.. thanks prudence... I'm making it my signature :)
 

sweet_intuition

Aeon418 said:
There is, or I should say was, a movie in production. I think it has stalled for various reasons connected with funding and such like. :( Lon Milo DuQuette wrote the script. :D


Oh I hope it gets made... it would def win an oscar :)

Lon should also write a movie based on Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford's life... would be an amazing comedy movie... Barbra Streisand should direct it :)
 

ravenest

doh!

Damn! I'm off line for a few days and look what happens, I missed another Crowley argument! Oh well, just when someone was having a go at Aeon. Rats! ;)

But I will make a comment on satanism - which has as many varieties as Heinz canned soup.

Here are three of my favorite types of 'Satanism' (and to avoid psuedo-semantical arguments note the '.... ' around the word).

The first was a reaction against Judaism and these people became known as the Opheichans (The worshippers of the serpent), a type of Gnostic sect. After observing all the evil, war, punishments and cruelty people were doing in the name of God, they assumed, justifibly, that this 'God', who condones and encourages this evil must be evil himself and therefore actually the devil, therefore the devil must be the real God and what he advocates should be the path to follow. Not having any contact or communication with this devil they had to follow what the others had invented about him, so they began practicing an ' inverted morality ' , they worshipped the snake in the garden of Eden, they revered the Egyptians, they practised sodomy ... (get the picture)

Then there was the Russian group that also practiced an 'inverted morality '.
(But just for fun, I think, not to do with any logical process like the above.)they had some bit of scripture that said they must obey Gods laws while they walked on the face of the earth ... which they did. But they also had caves ...and they are NOT ON the face of the earth, they are under it ... so anytime you were in cave, you were exempt ... wahoo! party time!

The third one I am giving to Anton. Ya gotta hand it to him, It was a brilliant marketing experiment and he did rope in signifancant numbers of wealthy Hollywood people.... here's my favorite from the LaVey 'satanic bible';

If someone strikes you on your cheek ... strike him back twice as hard on the other!
(I got heaps of laughs reading his book)

Basically I guess Satanism is; ... a reaction against stupid and oppresive religions.

[Madam Blavatskty and Rudolf Stiener wrote some very interesting stuff about Lucifer (who is also the morning star and the Lord of Initiation in some traditions) but later runs of their books and their own organisations have censored them, changing the ' offending ' word and titles.]
 

Rosanne

ravenest said:
But I will make a comment on satanism - which has as many varieties as Heinz canned soup.
Could'nt agree with you more. In fact Satanic Devil worship seems to be the least of it. I went to great pains to say I do not think Crowley a Devil Worshiper.

Basically I guess Satanism is; ... a reaction against stupid and oppresive religions.
I think this is what Crowley was following- but in a flawed way- rebellious and reactionary to the point his 'word' was lost in his outrageous and egotistical behaviour. That's the shame of it.

[Madam Blavatskty and Rudolf Stiener wrote some very interesting stuff about Lucifer (who is also the morning star and the Lord of Initiation in some traditions) but later runs of their books and their own organisations have censored them, changing the ' offending ' word and titles.]
It seems that in the 1930's the commonheld view was that Satanism was an inversion of Christian thinking and practice- rather than the focus of Lucifer as a powerful and alternative symbol. Since LeVey it is now much worse- The word makes people shudder and think Satanism means the Manson Family. Thanks for your imput Ravenest. ~Rosanne
 

Abrac

Myrrha said:
I don't see how this operation would make AC (or anyone) a Satanist. This very much like the magical working described in the _Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage_. It is exactly like it if you take the Princes of Evil and their servitors to be the goetic entities. The reason a magician would call these spirits up after making contact with the Holy Guardian Angel is to establish dominion and authority over them.

This is very different from worshipping the Prince or Princes of evil as Traditional Satanists do. Also, if you've read Crowley's introduction to the Goetia than you know that he understood the demons as psychological complexes or powers residing in the brain of the magician and not as independant entities. Traditional Satanists believe Satan and the Demons are independant beings.
My thinking is basically along the same line as yours Myrrha. You make some interesting points.

I have not seen or read Abramelin, but from what I understand, LaVey used the Four Great Princes in his Satanic Bible, calling them The Four Crowned Princes of Hell. He titled each section of his book with one of their names: The Book of Satan, The Book of Lucifer, The Book of Belial, and The Book of Leviathan. This could explain why some people today associate the names with Satanism. But I agree with you. The purpose for the working when it was originally written would have been to conjure the evil beings for the purpose of subjugating them for some higher purpose, though the logic behind conjuring an evil being for the purpose of doing good escapes me. *scratches head*

Personally, I do see Crowley as Satanic, but this is purely my opinion and I don't have a need to explain it or provide "proof." But I will say I don't base it simply on the Abramelin working.