The Lovers as feelings toward someone??

novenovembre

Then which card represents the archetype of true love? 2 people living happily ever after? 2 of cups and 10 of cups?

For happily ever after Walt Disney is much better than tarot....Tarot is about real life, not fairy tales.....human love, more often than not, has a duration....
 

novenovembre

Well, I actually tell the clients things that are accurately happening/happened or will happen in their lives without them telling me any details most of the times. I don't like giving my 'secrets' away because honestly I'm not getting anything out of it (perhaps a thank you at times, but mostly people copying/stealing my style, lol..which can get annoying because no credit is given to me). But what the heck...this one is actually the only card I look to where I either know there's someone else, or there is someone else which the querent later on finds out about. If it's in 'love/romance' readings..this is always the triangle - even without the client saying anything I always know accurate details about their lives because of the method I use. But like you said everyone has their style - in the end accuracy it what matters.

True...for me, I always know there is a triangle or deception when I get the 3 of swords, cups, or the 7 of swords, plus maybe a court card like for example the queen of pents-often rx-as mistress....we all have our signals....I pride myself in never having told anything that was far off the mark to my querents. Otherwise I would have given up...To me, the lovers has absolutely NEVER meant a triangle, but I'll bear that interpretation in mind....you never know....
 

Sulis

novenovembre said:
.I honestly can't see how it can represent a triangle, when so clearly there are TWO LOVERS there....

In modern decks yes, there are 2 lovers shown; an Adam and Eve type picture with an angel blessing the union from above but tarot cards were around for hundreds of years before the Rider-Waite-Smith tarot was drawn and in older versions of The Lovers there are 3 people and the central figure, the man looks as if he's either bidding goodbye to his mother and moving on to his new life with his new wife / lover or he's choosing between 2 women. I think that's where the interpretation of a choice involving the heart comes from - that and the number 6.
I've added an attachment to show the card from the Conver Heron deck and the more modern, cleaned up version from the CBD Tarot.
 

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Ambience

Lovers as feelings is a deep feeling of love and intimacy. This person has made the choice to be with what they consider to be their soul-mate.
 

novenovembre

Lovers as feelings is a deep feeling of love and intimacy. This person has made the choice to be with what they consider to be their soul-mate.

Very well put....I totally agree....
 

novenovembre

In modern decks yes, there are 2 lovers shown; an Adam and Eve type picture with an angel blessing the union from above but tarot cards were around for hundreds of years before the Rider-Waite-Smith tarot was drawn and in older versions of The Lovers there are 3 people and the central figure, the man looks as if he's either bidding goodbye to his mother and moving on to his new life with his new wife / lover or he's choosing between 2 women. I think that's where the interpretation of a choice involving the heart comes from - that and the number 6.
I've added an attachment to show the card from the Conver Heron deck and the more modern, cleaned up version from the CBD Tarot.

Yes, I knew these cards, and it's very interesting.....it does explain why the old meaning of choice....it would also be interesting to know why it has changed to the Adam and Eve image/archetype, and what is the history/story behind it.....
 

Richard

Well....either I'm very good at making my point, or you knew all along I was right....I wouldn't put it past you.....!
One of the exoteric meanings of The Lovers in the RWS is human (not excluding sexual) love, but the primary interpretation is esoteric, regarding the complementarity of the masculine and feminine (yin-yang) principles in the psyche. My main beef, however, is with the notion that the primary meaning is choice. As Adam and Eve are the only human beings in the Garden of Eden, there is no possibility of choice about whom to select as a partner. Of course, there are always choices of some sort involved, especially in matters of love and marriage, but almost everything we do involves choice.

I think the association of The Lovers with choice goes way back in history and is due to a misunderstanding of the symbolism of The Lover in older Tarot decks such as the Tarot de Marseille. In the following, I will refer to the popular Conver Tarot as reconstructed by Paul Marteau in the Grimaud Ancien Tarot de Marseille, of which a scan of The Lover is attached.

The are four characters in the image: Cupid, a young couple, and an older woman. Note first that Cupid's arrow is aimed at a point between the homely pig-like guy and the pretty woman. Cupid's attention is obviously on the young couple. In interpreting the Marseille it is important to take into account the details, such the direction in which the characters are looking and the positions of their hands. Note the hands of the young woman. Her receptive (left) hand is over the heart of the pig-man; her projective (right) hand is indicating her pelvic region. Both the man and the young woman seem to be paying attention to the older woman on the left, who may be royalty, as there is something like a crown on her head. In any event she appears to be a person of some authority. Her body language (note the position of her hand on the man's shoulder) is that of a friend giving advice, perhaps a counselor or relative. (In the 1JJ Swiss deck, she is depicted as an old hag in the background and would appear to be a matchmaker rather pleased with her success.)

Therefore the plain sense of the image is that of a young couple in love, possibly engaged, receiving counsel (perhaps about marriage) from an older friend, relative, or advisor. Choice as a primary meaning is really too much of a stretch here.

ETA. I just noticed that Sulis has the same idea about the "choice" interpretation originating with the older decks. I chose the Grimaud Lover for the attachment because the hair of the young woman is much prettier than in the Conver facsimiles or the CBD. :D I love this card. It is probably my favorite card in the Conver deck. There is something so human, warm, friendly, and familiar about it, at least according to my interpretation. It makes me feel good for some reason.
 

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novenovembre

One of the exoteric meanings of The Lovers in the RWS is human (not excluding sexual) love, but the primary interpretation is esoteric, regarding the complementarity of the masculine and feminine (yin-yang) principles in the psyche. My main beef, however, is with the notion that the primary meaning is choice. As Adam and Eve are the only human beings in the Garden of Eden, there is no possibility of choice about whom to select as a partner. Of course, there are always choices of some sort involved, especially in matters of love and marriage, but almost everything we do involves choice.

I think the association of The Lovers with choice goes way back in history and is due to a misunderstanding of the symbolism of The Lover in older Tarot decks such as the Tarot de Marseille. In the following, I will refer to the popular Conver Tarot as reconstructed by Paul Marteau in the Grimaud Ancien Tarot de Marseille, of which a scan of The Lover is attached.

The are four characters in the image: Cupid, a young couple, and an older woman. Note first that Cupid's arrow is aimed at a point between the homely pig-like guy and the pretty woman. Cupid's attention is obviously on the young couple. In interpreting the Marseille it is important to take into account the details, such the direction in which the characters are looking and the positions of their hands. Note the hands of the young woman. Her receptive (left) hand is over the heart of the pig-man; her projective (right) hand is indicating her pelvic region. Both the man and the young woman seem to be paying attention to the older woman on the left, who may be royalty, as there is something like a crown on her head. In any event she appears to be a person of some authority. Her body language (note the position of her hand on the man's shoulder) is that of a friend giving advice, perhaps a counselor or relative. (In the 1JJ Swiss deck, she is depicted as an old hag in the background and would appear to be a matchmaker rather pleased with her success.)

Therefore the plain sense of the image is that of a young couple in love, possibly engaged, receiving counsel (perhaps about marriage) from an older friend, relative, or advisor. Choice as a primary meaning is really too much of a stretch here.

ETA. I just noticed that Sulis has the same idea about the "choice" interpretation originating with the older decks. I chose the Grimaud Lover for the attachment because the hair of the young woman is much prettier than in the Conver facsimiles or the CBD. :D I love this card. It is probably my favorite card in the Conver deck. There is something so human, warm, friendly, and familiar about it, at least according to my interpretation. It makes me feel good for some reason.

When I decided that I was going to study tarot I didn't go for the RW exclusively straightaway, although they were my favourite. I bought different decks and the books about them, and the tarot de marseille were one of them. In the end, I narrowed it down to a choice (!) between the two of them, precisely-RW and marseille. The main reason why I finally went for the RW was that I saw the marseille as being too "old", linked to concepts and a vision of the world and human relations that was difficult to relate to in our modern societies and that were the mirror/product of an era that had ended, was no longer relevant, and made it hard for the reader to interpret life and relationships using that key. Maybe it was a gut response that I did not investigate further, didn't take the time to examine, but the RW just seemed so much more relevant to modern life.....the Lovers are a very good example of this. I take it the woman was meant to be the mother, and the man, like Sulis said, choosing his new life with a wife....again, old-fashioned concepts....even though it still happens in a way, "abandoning" the mother for the wife is less and less relevant in our culture....Also, I wonder why-excuse me for being obvious and maybe trivial here-if the main theme of the card in this old version was choice, why it wasn't simply called "Choice" rather that Lover or Lovers....
Like LRichard said, the key that could make everybody happy, like I also said somewhere before, could be choice regarding a partner, a soul mate, a husband or wife, etc....in that sense, the idea of choice does make sense....and Adam and Eve may not have had a real choice-they were the only two human beings on earth, like LRichard said-but they did choose to be together, whatever the price was...
 

Babymaker

I know this thread is old but I had to respond regardless.

EVERY single time the lovers came up in a reading it signified a triangle. And I mean every single time. In my deck of cards the lovers card shows a selection of three women for a man.
 

anniers22

I think that the tarot appear to us on the way we understand it. I noticed that some cards, like King of pents or Queen of swords, some people understand only bad things. For me, i interpret with good meanings. So, the tarot talks to me depending on what I understand about him. Its more your relationship with it than specifically meanings which is wrote on books

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