There was a wish: A new Forum

Teheuti

The crowned one said:
A historical section of a forum, where the basic history is known makes no sense to me for foundation type stuff, like pyramids and gypsies.It is like discussing Pre Copernican views of the sun with modern astronomers and telling them your fable is true.
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Pre-Copernican views of the sun are discussed by historians. That view is part of history - or are you suggesting that once the 'truth' is known then history has been rewritten so that Pre-Copernican views are no longer historically relevant?

It is historically true that people have entertained and/or believed and based artifacts (decks and books) on an origin of Tarot in ancient Egypt. It is historically true that gypsies in Europe have long been connected with divination. How these ideas affected the historical development of Tarot is history!

It is historically true that writers in the field of Western Esotericism from around 1600 started seeing a correspondence among numbers, letters and astrological signs, as in Kabbalah, as key to understanding God's plan of creation. The historical development of this idea can be followed to a place/time when Tarot was incorporated into it by someone.

While Historical Research sticks more closely to the actual facts themselves, it seems appropriate to have an area where these things can be discussed more broadly. Where we can speculate - WHAT IF Jacob Boehme had known and viewed the Tarot Trumps as another expression of letter-number-sign? Individuals could argue based on reason rather than on absolute fact. Historical Research could pick up at the point where someone turns up (if they did) more solid evidence.

WHAT IF the Mamluk cards were based on designs in Persian carpets? You have to entertain the idea and play with it a bit before you can see if it takes you anywhere.
 

gregory

Teheuti said:
While Historical Research sticks more closely to the actual facts themselves, it seems appropriate to have an area where these things can be discussed more broadly. Where we can speculate - WHAT IF Jacob Boehme had known and viewed the Tarot Trumps as another expression of letter-number-sign? Individuals could argue based on reason rather than on absolute fact. Historical Research could pick up at the point where someone turns up (if they did) more solid evidence.

WHAT IF the Mamluk cards were based on designs in Persian carpets? You have to entertain the idea and play with it a bit before you can see if it takes you anywhere.
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Exactly.
 

Teheuti

The crowned one said:
So we need tighter moderation, politer experts, or more forgiving minds.. all these things and more.. not a new forum? Elitism and snobbery is a no no, and the new students must be made to feel welcomed.
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Personally, I think Tarot needs a place that holds to high standards of research. If that's elitism, then so be it. Many people are unaware that such standards exist or what they involve. Newcomers are always welcome but should also recognize that it's a place to learn and explore historical methods as well as the history itself.

To accept all ideas as equally valid, and to suggest that faulty reasoning is just as valuable as an analysis of facts invalidates the very purpose and meaning of historical research. This doesn't help to advance Tarot history in any way. Instead, it encourages people to think that the best ideas about Tarot's past are those backed by the most persistent presenter or the one with the best sounding reasons or most interesting story. Tarot history is not served by reducing the discussion to the lowest common denominator or deciding historical questions by popular vote.

There will be no "politer experts" because the experts will go elsewhere.

The Tarotforum can only benefit from having one section out of dozens of others that upholds high standards in historical research. There are no universities or think-tanks that offer such a place to Tarot historians. Why can't we do that for ourselves?

But we also need an historical sandbox to play in more wildly and without constraints (except politeness).

I see this as a 6th forum.
 

cardlady22

So, there really isn't an answer? *sigh*
 

The crowned one

Teheuti said:
Pre-Copernican views of the sun are discussed by historians. That view is part of history - or are you suggesting that once the 'truth' is known then history has been rewritten so that Pre-Copernican views are no longer historically relevant?

It is historically true that people have entertained and/or believed and based artifacts (decks and books) on an origin of Tarot in ancient Egypt. It is historically true that gypsies in Europe have long been connected with divination. How these ideas affected the historical development of Tarot is history!

It is historically true that writers in the field of Western Esotericism from around 1600 started seeing a correspondence among numbers, letters and astrological signs, as in Kabbalah, as key to understanding God's plan of creation. The historical development of this idea can be followed to a place/time when Tarot was incorporated into it by someone.

While Historical Research sticks more closely to the actual facts themselves, it seems appropriate to have an area where these things can be discussed more broadly. Where we can speculate - WHAT IF Jacob Boehme had known and viewed the Tarot Trumps as another expression of letter-number-sign? Individuals could argue based on reason rather than on absolute fact. Historical Research could pick up at the point where someone turns up (if they did) more solid evidence.

WHAT IF the Mamluk cards were based on designs in Persian carpets? You have to entertain the idea and play with it a bit before you can see if it takes you anywhere.
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I DID entertain the idea quite seriously.


To be clear to others who think you are talking about the same thing as I was... you missed my point I said telling them it is "true". I love the discussion of why it was thought as true. History is fascinating, but to tell a Astronomer that Aristotle was right and they are wrong is silly, that was my point. Not the history of the old belief. I am sure many of our beliefs in physics and the brain will be laughed at 200 years from now. Sorry I worded my first post so poorly. :)
 

Laura Borealis

cardlady22 said:
So, there really isn't an answer? *sigh*
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gregory said:
Sounds that way :(
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I think there IS an answer, and it's a separate forum for Speculation, within Tarot History and Iconography, but separate from Historical Research. A sandbox, as Teheuti puts it.

And it should be clear from the start that the disrespect and dog-piling that goes on in H.R. (in the name of high research standards) will not be tolerated in the sandbox.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that H.R. should not be held to high standards -- I think it should. I am saying that the crap that goes along with that should not spill out of H.R. Because frankly it is annoying and dreary for the rest of us to read.
 

The crowned one

laura_borealis said:
I think there IS an answer, and it's a separate forum for Speculation, within Tarot History and Iconography, but separate from Historical Research. A sandbox, as Teheuti puts it.

And it should be clear from the start that the disrespect and dog-piling that goes on in H.R. (in the name of high research standards) will not be tolerated in the sandbox.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that H.R. should not be held to high standards -- I think it should. I am saying that the crap that goes along with that should not spill out of H.R. Because frankly it is annoying and dreary for the rest of us to read.
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I like what you have said.
 

cardlady22

A large concern still remains- how & where can we find history experts/teachers (in addition to Teheuti) who are willing to engage on our "flights of fancy" threads? I understand their concerns and resolutions to not support falsehood. But both sides need an interaction for it to work. I'm not trying to further the chasm between us, but in a way it is similar to the difference between playing a sport for a few weeks in Physical Education class vs being on a state competition level or even a professional team.
 
Minchiate Francesi - made by Francois I + II de Poilly POLL: New Forum Section?