Astrological Considerations in Historic Tarot - split from 'what we do NOT know'

Rosanne

If you look at the astrological ceiling horoscope? in Florence you will see that it is based on Ptolemaic( expressly Almagest )
Looking from the top- you have Draco, Ursa Minor and Ursa Major.To the right is Cephaus,(The King of Ethiopia) followed by Cassiopeia(The vain Queen of Ethiopia), Perseus,(Greek Hero who slays Medusa) Auriga(The Charioteer sometimes son of Hermes) ending at Taurus.
Below Taurus is Orion(The Huntsman), below Orion is Eridanus(River:traditionally the River Po),below the River is Great dog where Sirius is.
Left of Taurus is Gemini, The sun, Cancer and Leo on the elliptic, going left.
Below Gemini is Canis Minor(cat/dog/fox); below and to the left of Cancer is Hydra.
Above Hydra is Leo. Virgo is not there.
Then I had a thought about the Christianizing of the Zodiac.
What if Virgo is personified as the three Virtues?(She always used to have angel wings)
With Libra scales she is Justice?
With Crater and Corvus she is Temperance?
With Leo she is Strength?
All attributes of the Virgin Mary.
If this is so she would not be in a horoscope painting and funnily enough she is not.
~Rosanne
 

Bernice

Cheiromancer, see Rosannes' post above yours:-

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3723465&postcount=6

"...Finally on July 5th, the agreement was reached, and signed off and Published and read out July 6th. The West had won, or so it seemed at the time. The Greeks back home never accepted it.
and the Son.... was included in the Nicene Creed."

The sun was moving through Gemini at the time of the agreement. It appears that the 'winnners' were so delighted that they commemorated the victory with the the ceiling art.


Hi Rosanne! - love the astrological/astronomical approach, but I've wondered if it couid also apply to the original (mamluk, no trumps) deck. Can't think it does, but wouldn't it be fantastic if it was, and the astro got carried through to to the trumps. But wishing doesn't make it so...


Bee :)
 

Cheiromancer

So you are telling me that the agreement was reached on the 6th and 7th of June, and was published almost exactly a month later?

I'm sorry to belabor the point. I must have taken my stupid pills this morning, because I honestly cannot follow the explanation about the connection between June 6th and 7th (Sun in Gemini) on the one hand and July 5th and 6th (date of the Council's agreement) on the other.
 

Rosanne

So you are telling me that the agreement was reached on the 6th and 7th of June, and was published almost exactly a month later?

I'm sorry to belabor the point. I must have taken my stupid pills this morning, because I honestly cannot follow the explanation about the connection between June 6th and 7th (Sun in Gemini) on the one hand and July 5th and 6th (date of the Council's agreement) on the other.
If I had used a Tdm, I would not have confused you- but I used the Cary-Yale sheet which has only one child, not two.
Astronomers from the East used sidereal divisions of the Zodiac based on fixed stars- Western astronomers use Tropical divisions, based on the Vernal equinox.
So......
Gemini Tropical is 22 May-21 June
Gemini Sidereal is 16 June- 15 July
Cancer Tropical is 22 June- 22 July
Cancer Sidereal is 16 July-16 August
So...
8 June Eastern Catholics accepted 'filioque' but their Patriarch died two days later, so all hell broke loose.
Finally signed 5th July and (published is not clear) promulgated the Decree of Union on 6th July. That is put into Law by Public announcement.A public holiday was declared for that celebration. That decree was called 'Let the Heavens Rejoice'.
I bet the scribes were busy for a month!
Anyway.....The Nicene Creed that all the fuss was about is a declaration of Christian Faith.

.....from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now look at the the Tarot cards of TdM.
Star/Moon/Sun/Judgement/World.
~Rosanne
 

Cartomancer

Tarot, Astronomy, and Constellations

I was trying to take the slow circuitous route Lol. You are braver than me, I keep looking behind the screen to see who is waiting to scream "ASTROLOGY????" There is no proof of astrology, it has been researched and there is no evidence.
~Rosanne

Part of the problem is the use of the word "astrology", which has so much baggage that it is confusing. If the Tarot had origins that were associated with astrology, then it might as well have connections with astronomy and constellational and celestial mythology. Any investigation of the connection between astrology and the tarot might find connections between meanings of planets and the zodiac and specific cards, but there is no documented connection as yet. But who is doing the documenting? How can there be no evidence that astrology or even astronomy is connected with the Tarot? I contend that research finding no connection between the Tarot trumps and astrology/astronomy is incomplete or completely wrong.

There are ancient star maps that suggest that the Tarot trumps are based on common illustrations of major constellations.

We do not have any examples of woodblock cards at the beginning, I have taken the liberty to suggest that the Cary-Yale sheet maybe something like the game cards of Tarot in the time of 1439 Florence.
I would like you to look at the the Celestial cards of Star/Moon and Sun on the Cary- Yale Sheet. Only half of the Sun card is visible and seems from a design point of view it had one child carrying a banner- not two as in the TdM later versions.
http://tarothistory.com/cary.html
...
~Rosanne

If the Sun card portrayed the child Phaethon (son of the solar sun god Helios), then there is no connection to Gemini.

If you look at the astrological ceiling horoscope? in Florence you will see that it is based on Ptolemaic( expressly Almagest )
Looking from the top- you have Draco, Ursa Minor and Ursa Major.To the right is Cephaus,(The King of Ethiopia) followed by Cassiopeia(The vain Queen of Ethiopia), Perseus,(Greek Hero who slays Medusa) Auriga(The Charioteer sometimes son of Hermes) ending at Taurus.
Below Taurus is Orion(The Huntsman), below Orion is Eridanus(River:traditionally the River Po),below the River is Great dog where Sirius is.
Left of Taurus is Gemini, The sun, Cancer and Leo on the elliptic, going left.
Below Gemini is Canis Minor(cat/dog/fox); below and to the left of Cancer is Hydra.
Above Hydra is Leo. Virgo is not there....
Then I had a thought about the Christianizing of the Zodiac.
What if Virgo is personified as the three Virtues?(She always used to have angel wings)
With Libra scales she is Justice?
~Rosanne

It is my thesis that many of the constellations of the northern sky were made into Tarot trump cards. The trump cards are simply pictures of constellations, although some were updated to reflect changes in star maps. I also believe that Waite knew about these constellations. Why can't we accept that constellations could be pictured in the Tarot trumps? There are many possible reasons.

Your eye has to be trained to see icons in art and illustrations. The Tarot trump icons identify the corresponding constellations.

" With Libra scales she is Justice?" ~Rosanne
"Cephaus, (The King of Ethiopia)" ~Rosanne
"followed by Cassiopeia (The vain Queen of Ethiopia)," ~Rosanne

Exactly. Libra is Justice. The World is Virgo.
Cepheus is the Emperor of the Tarot Trumps and Cassiopeia is the Empress.
Cepheus and Cassiopeia are also the Kings and Queens in the Tarot suits.
The Prince and Princess (Knights/Pages) represent Perseus and Andromeda.
The suits can be seen in northern constellations. Showing clusters of stars and constellation configurations to kids and then asking them to see a particular animal or figure has been done for thousands of years. This is an ancient tradition, but it takes imagination to see the ancient mythological figures in the stars. The Tarot trumps are constellations that take some imagination to see, but they are there.

~ Cartomancer (Lance Carter)