Thoth deck the one and only?

Zephyros

Women no longer "tame the beast" by their receptivity, they are now willing and able supplicants, desiring union in equal proportions to their counterparts, lusting after it. Female care and softness are exactly the outdated views of femininity cards like Lust seek to subvert. I don't see the Thoth Priestess as tomboyish at all, as a matter of fact.

I can't recall the Crowley quote you mention; I do remember him saying the old decks were "hopelessly corrupt," as in the ideas they sought to convey had been lost over the centuries. I would respect what Sally Nichols says about the differences between esoteric Tarot and the Marseilles, if it weren't for the fact that it simply isn't true. The Marseilles is a card game, any meaning added on to it is a later addition, as far as I know, and has nothing to do with the mysteries. I could find esoteric meanings in the Monopoly board, that doesn't mean that is the original intent of its creator.

As if that weren't enough, I don't see the point of holding Crowley's own views (although I am not convinced what you are describing is his own view) as a ruler to everything. Many times I find I disagree with Crowley's points, and then I do some homework and find out exactly why I disagree and can usually explain why. No one is trying to emulate Aleister Crowley in everything, that goes against the basic messages of both the Thoth and the Book of Law. Not only that, but what's the point of saying "Crowley didn't like other decks, but I do?" I like other decks, too, some very un-esoteric. I don't have any problems with that, no crises of faith in that I both subscribe to the Thoth and, for example, the Gay Tarot or the Sakki-Sakki.

This is again the same issue in a different guise. No one can defend things attributed to them that they didn't say, and no one should be asked to justify why they don't like other decks, when everyone does. Let me give you some forum advice. A good thread would be to quote a Crowley quote, and ask what others think of it. Or, ask about the differences between the Thoth and other decks, for example the Jungian. Or ask people their opinions, simply, without projecting onto them an opinion nobody ever professed.
 

yogiman

I went a little bit too far. What was in my mind, but couldn't quickly find in the BoT was (p.63) :
In the commonplace interpretation of the card, the Scholiasts say that the picture is
that of a gay, careless youth, with a sack full of follies and illusions, dancing along the edge of a precipice, unaware that the tiger and crocodile shown in the card are about to attack him. It is the view of the Little Bethel.

As a matter of fact, this is the way it is depicted in the tarot de marseilles (tiger&crocodile=dog).
 

Zephyros

:confused:

What does that quote about the Fool have to do with anything? In certain cases the Fool could denote a juvenile, but that doesn't mean that the Marseilles is juvenile, or that Crowley didn't appreciate other decks. I can't follow your line of reasoning.
 

yogiman

I think the implication clear. The Fool in the Marseilles is for Little Bethel. And the Fool is the quintessential card of the whole tarot.
 

Richard

......The Marseilles is a card game, any meaning added on to it is a later addition, as far as I know, and has nothing to do with the mysteries.......
There are many ways to 'add' esoteric meaning to a traditional pack of playing cards, whether by subtle (Waite) or radical (Crowley) alterations of the traditional imagery, or by means of direct visionary insight into the unaltered originals. In any case, it is as Blake wrote in 'Auguries of Innocence':

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .

http://www.artofeurope.com/blake/bla3.htm
 

Le Fanu

It is a "corrected" deck.... it suggests different sexual orientations
As I have no idea what point yogiman is making, can I ask you to elaborate a little on this? Which cards suggest this to you? I'm intrigued...
 

ravenest

To be fair, Crowley has made a statement somewhere in which he portrays the Tarot de Marseilles as being infantile.

I have never seen that.
And as a matter of fact my original phasing was: the infantile Marseilles vs the male adult Thoth.

What original phrasing and where? Sounds like you are trying to back out of something. We can only go on what is written here.

With regard to gender, compare both High Priestesses, and you see that Crowley's is tomboyish.

What on earth does that mean ??? She is a girl that ' acts like a boy' ? She is Dianna, a huntress ... that is the WHOLE point of what we are trying to explain to you.

Though this adaptation was visionary and female emancipatory, today many women have swinged to the other direction by adopting extreme male values, to the expense of female care and softness.

:bugeyed:

Through the Jungian approach of Sally Nichols, I now appreciate those "infantile" depictions of the tarot figures, as if my inner child is being revived. She claims that the esoteric based tarot cards are created on basis of philosophy, while the TdM has arisen straight from the subconscious of the mystery artist. Presumably like Crowley she is exaggerating, and both decks should be viewed in their own light. Because at the moment I am in a crisis, I feel more drawn to the simplistic "inner child" Marseilles, though that can easily change in the future.

Then I suggest that one who thinks like that should go and seek and play with the ' "infantile" depictions of the tarot figures' .
 

ravenest

I appreciate that English may not be your first language, and I wouldn't want to misinterpret what you're saying.... but I'm really struggling to accept what you seem to be saying here.

You are not the only one
 

ravenest

I think the implication clear. The Fool in the Marseilles is for Little Bethel. And the Fool is the quintessential card of the whole tarot.

I might need to point out that we are not privy to connections you are making in your mind and quantum posting (although maybe linked together in your own mental processes) is virtually impossible to follow unless you make the logical links in the written posts. Normally this can be followed with people of the same mental map (when our internal links are understood by shared association symbols ; astrology, kabbalah, mythology etc.) ...

IE. it is not clear.
 

ravenest

As I have no idea what point yogiman is making...

Going from past posts he has made here he feels there is not enough soft tender care and mothering in Thoth and Thelema.

He said he accepted 'New Age trust teachings', - across the board , and (so, of course) got burned by that and still feels projected anger.

He posted about wanting to find some type of image/teacher in the western tradition .

He posted that this person in the G.D. who he thought should be a teacher wasn't up to scratch, got upset and angry about that and appears to have gone on some type of mission to debunk it .

Nuit is a primary devotional focus for me ... at night my spirit sleeps sound nestled in her starry arms, by day, her reflection, the world of nature, nurtures and supports me (I have help and proof of this with the indigenous ... I have seen their ability to survive totally naked and with nothing in nature , being supported by 'the mother', as they call it. If I have communicated I want something they tell me , literally, 'go and ask Mum' .... and I usually get it :) )